Garden tractor acquisition

Mower trouble? Are 2-cycle engines the bane of your existence?
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kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

Nevermind all the prior unpleasantness.

Here's the current candidate:
http://providence.craigslist.org/grd/5643727322.html
I'm selling a Simplicity 5212.5 tractor. Triple bagger included on the 50" deck mower with a 12.5 HP twin cylinder engine. Tractor was just tuned last season and works great for everyday use. $350 solid. Serious inquiries only please. See pictures attached.
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Simplicity has changed hands over the years but in the mid 80s, it was a high quality mid-western brand. I would put it in the class of a Gravely or Jacobsen. Other known brands probably make machines in this class like John Deere and Husqvarna. It is associated with other brands over the years (either bought or were owned by) such as Allis-Chalmers, Massey Ferguson, Snapper - all good brands. It was bought by Briggs & Stratton in 2004 and I'm not sure the reputation has been maintained since then.

Features include:
- Probably a 1986 model or thereabouts
- B&S 12.5 hp twin, cast iron sleeves and all. Only 12.5 hp you say? It is 655 cc!! The answer is it probably has a much wider range of RPM in which it produces 12.5 hp (because torque) which means in practice, it won't bog down as much as a smaller displacement engine of similar power. Translated again, it acts like a more powerful engine. Works for me.
- Hydrostatic transmission
- I don't think it is a 50" deck but it is probably the 48" deck, which is more than enough
- Turbo collection system (an optional accessory) which reportedly is very effective in helping to shove grass/leaves up the chute into the bags
- Lots of interesting accessories were available (see manuals)
- The 5000 series was a hybrid between the 4000 series home owner type mower and the 6000 series which was a bit more industrial. This class of mower is expensive to duplicate the quality today (i.e. not $1500 from Home Depot).
- It's the B-body of tractors.
- $350 is actually a fair price for what this is but I hope to get it for $300 assuming it is ready to run. Found one in NJ, gear transmission, wants $550. Found another one with snow thrower and snow cab for $750. Another one with 42" deck, $400. These comps are hundreds of miles away but it basically means this is the cheapest 5212.5 on all of Craigslist and appears to be in good shape.

Intended use:
- Tow a trailer around the yard for landscaping projects/chores
- Leaf collection in the fall
- Eventually when I have a lawn, I will cut grass with it
Attachments
Simplicity 5212.5 and 5216 manual.pdf
(2.11 MiB) Downloaded 68 times
Simplicity 5200 operators manual.pdf
(3.45 MiB) Downloaded 101 times
Bob
Posts: 2440
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:36 am

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by Bob »

kevm14 wrote:- Eventually when I have a lawn, I will cut grass with it
I was going to ask about that.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

Today went much better than last weekend.

Rented another trailer and off we went to Foster.

Upon arriving, we basically did an external examination and it seemed fine. Then we spent like 10 to 15 minutes trying to start it. Ultimately it turns out the guy (self-admitted not handy) had his charger/booster on the wrong settings, which I determined within 4 seconds of actually looking at the thing. Then it started up and ran.

I backed it out and drove around out in the yard for a while which seemed fine. Actually the transmission seemed to function perfectly. Then I engaged the blades. I ran it to full throttle and it actually seemed to bog down on the grass, while doing something resembling either an ignition misfire or a rich misfire (some black smoke). Sometime after that, the belt shredded but that may have been exacerbated by my moving some linkage around, not understanding how the transport deck lift works (changes the angle of the belt). So we spent 10 minutes in the yard fixing that. Then it had to be jumped again. Did I mention the right front tire loses air after just a few hours? That wasn't in the ad, either, but he did mention it on the phone.

So basically, not really turn key. It is a 42" not a 50" and has a double bagger, not a triple. I felt that we were beginning to waste his time and he basically said, look, make any offer. And then he said he might even end up giving it away or something. Ah.

Here I was prepared to spend $300, hoping that wasn't a low ball on $350. But after he said what he said, I responded with $150. He said $175. Sold.

We drove east and picked up a Rubbermaid dump cart/trailer for $60. Turns out it has 1,200 lb capacity (I think 750 was advertised) so that's pretty sweet. Good day. Pics and other stuff to come.
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kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

Briggs 404707 operator's manual and parts manual attached.
Attachments
Briggs 404707 parts manual.pdf
(662.01 KiB) Downloaded 51 times
Briggs 404707 manual.pdf
(764.75 KiB) Downloaded 92 times
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

Today's accomplishments:
New plugs, greased front end, cleaned up the seat (actually in great shape), new air filter, charging battery.

The plugs look pretty gassy but I think this is a symptom and not the cause. They didn't seem to have a ton of hours on them.
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Maybe with the new plugs and air filter it's fine now. Problem is, it's really not noticeable except under actual load. The next time I plan that is probably doing leaves in the fall. I also think there's more going on than that. The high speed jet in the carb is fixed, and all I can adjust is the idle circuit. Could be the coil/plug wires. Not sure yet.

Engine ID plate for future reference:
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I think this might be the actual model number of the tractor:
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Badly yellowed fuel gauge (in fuel cap):
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It is old enough that Solid State Ignition was a feature.
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Info placard
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More tomorrow.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

Random shots

Battery compartment. I think this would hold a sizable battery. Probably should POR-15 this if I want it to last a long time. Also featured is the hydrostatic transmission fill cap and the neutral safety switch on the shifter (left center).
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Front shot with a flat tire and the battery cover open. Note the black thing on the left. That is the "turbo collection" accessory which is basically an assist fan to blow stuff up the chute into the bags.
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Shot of the rear. Good sized rear tires. Manual says they only need 6-8 psi (fronts are 12-15).
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Inside shot of the fan. It's driven off the pulley for the right most mower blade.
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Belt nest. The manual says I have to pull the deck off to replace this belt. I guess that makes sense and should make it a lot easier. Removing the deck isn't terrible so whatever.
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I don't know what the tape was for. Air filter cover on the bottom.
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New plugs. Cast iron sleeve I/C man card. 655 cc and two cylinders to make 12.5 HP? Damn right.
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Ok so the deck isn't perfect. I'd imagine there are a variety of ways to repair this and it's not an emergency. Fiberglass mesh with JB weld on both sides? Welding? Other?
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The carbinator. That thing on top is the fuel pump. And the hose is sketchy. It's actually weeping fuel at the end of it. I may cut it off and re-clamp it. New hose would be better.
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Idle speed screw (more left) and idle mixture (centerish).
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I have no idea what that solenoid-looking silver canister is coming off the carb. Sensor? It has 1 wire. Maybe I need to dig more in the B&S manual. EDIT: the manual says "solenoid.". Ah, it is a fuel shutoff solenoid. I guess it prevents the bang at shutoff from fuel burning in the exhaust manifold. You can see the log intake manifold running to each cylinder here. Long runners for max torque? The TPI of lawn tractor engines?
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I think this is the governator linkage and that screw on the end may adjust max governed engine speed. Given how "easy" it is to get to, that is probably it.
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Deck rollers. This is some kind of Simplicity trademark (floating deck design). The rollers. The deck also floats with the front axle rather than with the frame.
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Bagging crap. The bags have mouse holes in them. Scores.
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Air filter P/N for future reference. I went to a LOT of stores yesterday and the only place that stocked this was Tractor Supply. Even they did not have a 120" deck belt though. Home Depot actually had some longer ones but not the correct one.
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Random crap that came with it. Some belts (turbo collection probably), the side discharge cover, a pulley (possibly the turbo collection thing comes with a dual pulley and this is the original), a pulley cover (needed if I removed the turbo collector fan) and some extra rollers.
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Trailer. I greased up the wheels/axle. This trailer is in good shape. There isn't much metal on it which is pretty cool. Bonus: it was advertised as 750 lb capacity but this sticker says 1,200! If I need another trailer, it will be because of volume, not weight capacity. Cool.
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Battery on the Battery Tender. It is probably done now. I think it took enough charge to function as a battery, though I may want to disconnect the ground if I let it sit a while. Bloomfield, CT.
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kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

A few more docs to reference. A parts manual and an operator's manual that includes the exact model # of my machine (1691423) which it positively identifies as a 42". Or the deck itself is that P/N...this manual seems to cover the gear transmission models. Still not sure what year this is, either. 1986 is probably a close enough guess and thus this is a 30 year old machine.

The manuals make reference to the seat switch:
Mfg. No. 1691030 and higher are equipped with a seat switch which will stop the engine if operator leaves seat when PTO is engaged and/or transmission is in gear. The other models are not equipped with this seat switch. On all models, the transmission must be in NEUTRAL and PTO disengaged to start engine. Also, switch will prevent starting if operator is not in seat.
That last part is interesting because I don't think that's typical as long as the parking brake is engaged. I'm wondering if the parking brake actually has a safety switch. I can test today. Although it is probably worth mentioning that the seat switch wires are completely disconnected. For safety. Maybe I'll look into that.
Attachments
Simplicity 5212.5 operators manual including 1691423.pdf
(2.15 MiB) Downloaded 30 times
Simplicity 5200 parts manual.pdf
(923.48 KiB) Downloaded 35 times
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

So the rich misfire is still an issue. I can trigger it by going full choke and then opening the choke fully. It'll sit there for a while before it slowly clears up. It is just way too rich. It is using a ton of fuel considering I am just driving around the yard. I believe it is a carburetor issue. I THINK the ignition is alright.

Found a few folks with these engines complaining of it running rich. One guy said his local shop couldn't figure it out and he ended up with a new carb (newer style also) and that did fix it.

I will remove the fuel stop solenoid under which is the main (non-adjustable) fuel jet. Perhaps it is loose. I wish it was just adjustable.

I did do the idle mixture adjustment procedure. And the idle mixture does have some influence for sure on this condition. But I can tell something is up because the manual says 1-1/2 turns out from all the way in should be about good. And it needs 1/2 turn from all the way in (should be lean) for the idle to be right. If I adjust it all the way in until it stops, it helps the rich issue under some rpms, but then is way too lean to idle right. Main fuel jet issue I think. Or maybe the fuel pump is over-pressurizing the fuel bowl. Something along those lines.

I did do an oil change, using Delo 400 15W-40 (same as I just put in the generator).

Overall, it functions but this issue needs to be fixed. I shudder to think how long it was run like this.

Oh I almost forgot. I seafoamed the carb while running with the Deep Creep. Got some good smoke. I am sure there is carbon in there but it didn't really seem to make much of a difference in the end. I could put some stuff in the fuel but with a rich issue, I'm not sure that is going to help, either.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

This was fun.
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Loaded it up with 4 bags of mulch and a bag of peat moss. That's when I found out the tires were totally flat. So I aired them up to 47 psi (tires said 60 max). I guess time will tell if they hold.
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Fun fact: with it idled all the way down, it was able to pull this load up the hill in my back yard at full speed. I even stopped on the slope and jammed it to full speed and it didn't stall. So many torques. Imagine how nice it would be if I could tune the high speed mixture....sigh.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Garden tractor acquisition

Post by kevm14 »

While I was at Tractor Supply getting my 80" transmission belt I decided to pick up a new fuel filter and fuel line. The old filter didn't look terrible but the line sure did and was weeping at the fuel pump.

Pretty simple job. I didn't even bother to look up how to do it.

Pop the left head cover off. 4 bolts. The fuel line is routed on top of it. You can see I have already removed the old line and installed the new filter. I took the time to blow any junk out of the head cooling fins and it wasn't that bad actually.
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Here's the carb end.
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Next I decided I would remove and inspect the main jet. It is non-adjustable (grrrrr) and requires the removal of the fuel stop solenoid. Here is a shot after removing the solenoid (1/2" open end wrench). You just stick a 3/16" allen key in there and unthread it.
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Here is the solenoid. It basically jams a small rubber cone into the center of the main fuel jet, immediately stopping fuel flow into the engine once the ignition is shut off. It is to prevent raw gas from burning in the exhaust (pop after shutdown, which my generator does). If this dies, the engine won't run. The redneck fix is to remove and cut off the end of the plunger.
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The main jet, once removed, looked perfect. Totally clean. I removed the idle adjustment valve and blew combinations of compressed air and carb cleaner into both ports. I also blew out the breather ports on the fuel pump cover.

Then I reassembled everything and decided to make a video of it. I figured it would crank a while to get fuel flowing but surprisingly, it lit right up (you can see the facial expression I made). It must have had fuel left in the bowl. Unfortunately I am going to have to rebuild the fuel pump. The good news is, it is $5.50 on Amazon. Because Briggs & Stratton. Actually, entire carb rebuild kit is only $20 and it comes with the fuel pump stuff. I will just get that. I have to pull the intake manifold off the engine so this isn't as easy as a ~5hp lawn mower engine but hopefully it will be worth my time.
https://www.amazon.com/Fuel-Pump-393397 ... entries*=0
https://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton- ... rds=694056

Video link: https://youtu.be/PXuXx4SN7pM
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