M/T: 2020 Honda Civic Si

Non-repair car talk
kevm14
Posts: 15241
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: M/T: 2020 Honda Civic Si

Post by kevm14 »

So in a vacuum, this is good stuff.

However, for a very similar price you can get a base Camaro with the 2.0T. Now if you add $4,500 for the 1LE ($30,495 not including any other discounts that may be offered), you can lap VIR a whopping 9 seconds faster.

2017 Honda Civic Si, 3:14.6
2019 Chevrolet Camaro Turbo 1LE, 3:05.6

To put a really dramatic spin on it, here are the list of cars with VIR lap times between these two. This really illustrates the gap. Starts out pretty strong but by the bottom of the lists, gets lame. I think it also shows how good the Alpha platform is. Just about all of this stuff has way more power than the Camaro 2.0T. Some have HUNDREDS of additional horsepower.

Side note, check out the Hyundai Veloster. Maybe there is something to that car after all.
2007 Porsche 911 Turbo, 3:05.8
2009 Porsche 911 Carrera S, 3:05.8
2015 Lexus RC F, 3:05.8
2009 Porsche Cayman S, 3:05.8
2016 Lexus GS F, 3:05.9
2007 Ford Shelby GT500, 3:05.9
2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA45 AMG, 3:05.9
2012 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG coupe, 3:06.3
2010 Jaguar XKR, 3:06.4
2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata Cup Car, 3:06.4
2008 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG, 3:06.5
2011 BMW 1-series M, 3:06.6
2014 Jaguar XFR-S, 3:06.7
2014 Cadillac CTS Vsport, 3:06.8
2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk, 3:06.9
2011 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, 3:06.9
1999 Acura NSX Zanardi Edition, 3:07.1
2014 BMW M235i, 3:07.2
2019 Genesis G70 3.3T Dynamic, 3:07.3
2010 Ford Shelby GT500, 3:07.4
2017 BMW M760i xDrive, 3:07.6
2016 Audi TTS, 3:07.7
2019 Hyundai Veloster N Performance Package, 3:07.7
2017 BMW M240i, 3:08.0
2011 Lotus Evora, 3:08.3
2009 Audi TTS, 3:08.4
2011 Ford Mustang GT, 3:08.6
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C, 3:08.8
2011 Jaguar XFR, 3:08.9
2006 Lotus Elise, 3:09.2
2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z51, 3:09.3
2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392, 3:09.4
2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 3:09.5
2006 Porsche Cayman S, 3:09.5
2013 Audi S6, 3:09.8
2006 BMW M6, 3:10.0
2012 Dodge Charger SRT8, 3:10.1
2012 BMW Z4 sDrive35is, 3:10.4
2007 BMW 335i coupe, 3:10.5
2015 Subaru WRX STI, 3:10.5
2010 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution SE, 3:10.6
2010 Audi S4, 3:10.8
2007 Ford Shelby GT500, 3:11.0
2012 BMW X5 M, 3:11.1
2007 Audi RS4, 3:11.2
2015 Audi S3, 3:11.3
2018 Subaru WRX Performance Package, 3:11.5
2018 Kia Stinger GT, 3:11.6
2007 BMW Z4 M coupe, 3:11.7
2009 Nissan 370Z NISMO, 3:12.0
2019 Volkswagen Jetta GLI 35th Anniversary Edition, 3:12.2
2015 Volkswagen Golf R, 3:12.3
2006 Nissan 350Z Track, 3:12.5
2011 Ford Mustang V-6, 3:12.5
2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS, 3:13.0
2012 BMW 335i Sport Line, 3:13.2
2010 Ford Mustang GT, 3:13.3
2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR, 3:13.3
2014 Lexus IS350 F sport, 3:13.4
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR, 3:13.5
2008 BMW 135i, 3:13.7
2012 BMW 335is, 3:13.8
2011 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-spec, 3:13.8
2011 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Sedan, 3:13.8
2013 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-spec, 3:13.9
2008 Lexus IS F, 3:14.0
2012 Volkswagen Golf R, 3:14.0
2018 Subaru BRZ tS, 3:14.0
2008 Audi S5, 3:14.6
2015 Volkswagen GTI, 3:14.6
I put this up to give you an idea of what kind of performance is available around this price range. Before Bob asks, that 2017 Civic Si was on Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2, which is a summer tire according to my research.

So it probably stands to reason that if you delete 1LE and in fact take that base Camaro for the same price as a Civic Si, you still have a lot more performance. In fact here are the numbers:

2017 Honda Civic Si coupe, summer tires
Zero to 60 mph: 6.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.9 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 34.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 7.4 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 12.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 8.3 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 96 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 137 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 159 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.97 g

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA combined/city/hwy: 32/28/38 mpg
C/D observed: 26 mpg
C/D observed 75-mph highway driving: 36 mpg

OK I admit 0.97G is impressive.

2016 Camaro 2.0T, all season tires
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 30.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.4 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 17.7 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 11.3 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 97 mph
Top speed (C/D est): 145 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 170 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.89 g

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA combined/city/hwy: 24/21/30 mpg
C/D observed: 19 mpg

Maybe the case is less clear - I'd have to drive both.

For fun, here is what you get with the 1LE package on the turbo Camaro, on summer tires:

Zero to 60 mph: 5.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.8 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 28.9 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.2 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 18.0 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 11.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.8 sec @ 100 mph
Top speed (governor limited, C/D est): 145 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 148 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.00 g

C/D FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 17 mpg
75-mph highway driving: 25 mpg
Highway range: 470 mi

Now we're talking. But it's 5 grand more. I know I'm biased but I think I'd take the Camaro all day, if we are talking coupes. With the Si being available as a 4 door though, that's a different thing and I believe it provides identical performance to the coupe. Discuss?

Actually here's what a Civic Si sedan does with all seasons:

Zero to 60 mph: 6.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 16.6 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 33.9 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 7.7 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 13.3 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 8.9 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 15.0 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 137 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 176 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.88 g

C/D FUEL ECONOMY:
Observed: 28 mpg
75-mph highway driving: 42 mpg
Highway range: 520 miles

This is revealing. The gap between the Si on summer tires and all seasons is HUGE, especially compared to the gap with the Camaro. Now I think I'd definitely take the Camaro since the base Camaro is also on all seasons. I think fuel economy may be the only real on paper advantage to the Si. Nearly 10 mpg better as tested, though I'd rather compare 75 mph MPG but it wasn't tested that way on the Camaros.
kevm14
Posts: 15241
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: M/T: 2020 Honda Civic Si

Post by kevm14 »

Relevant: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... -si-coupe/

LOL

The 99 Si had 20.3:1 steering. WTF is that??

Ah, Honda brakes. Unsat.
Back in the day we tested a 1999 Si and recorded a modest 0.85 g of grip on the skidpad and a rather scary 70-to-zero-mph stopping distance of 210 feet.
Geez, overcompensate much?
You sit much lower in the new car and in a properly bolstered sport seat. The tach is mounted in the center of the instrument cluster, as it should be, and the steering is much quicker with a 10.9:1 ratio.
And the rest of the quote:
You immediately notice the new car's firmer suspension setup, but it doesn't give up much ride comfort to the cushier classic. On the new Civic Si, 18-inch wheels and tires are standard and our tester wore the optional Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2 summer rubber. Although its better balanced than its ancestor, it isn't radically so, with 61.4 percent of its weight up front. Its agility and grip levels are in another league, though. The new car stops from 70 mph in just 159 feet, and it generates a stout 0.97 g of lateral stick. On a good road, with its superior grip and acceleration, it simply leaves the 20-year-old car for dead.
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