Mazda3 Replacement

Non-repair car talk
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by bill25 »

So here is a comparo between the V6 Camaro (2010) and Mustang (2011):
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... son-tests/

Oddly with almost no stats. The Mustang is half a second quicker to 60 though: 0-to-60 in 5.4 seconds, the quarter-mile in 14 flat at 104 mph.

From https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1514 ... -car-news/:
The V6 Camaro: 60 in 5.9 seconds and cover the quarter-mile in 14.5 at 99 mph.

V6 6th Gen Camaro stats (still too expensive): https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... ic-review/
5.2 and 13.8 seconds
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by bill25 »

Lightning Lap Stats: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... ical-data/

2013 ZL1 2:57.5
2013 Camaro SS 1LE: 3:01.5
2017 V6 Camaro 1LE 3:04.0
2010 Camaro SS: 3:09.5

2011 V6 Mustang: 3:12.5
2008 Cobalt SS: 3.13
2010 V8 Mustang: 3:13.3
2007 MazdaSpeed3 3:16.0
2008 Infiniti G37S 3:17.5
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by kevm14 »

Bob is supposed to come on here and put in his two cents on the Mustang. I think the TL;DR is wait until the gen 6 V6 falls to your price range. The S197 solid axle Mustangs are not very good to drive, even if the numbers are good.

Here are some arguments:
- You actually have ended up with vehicles above average in the driving dynamics department, namely the 3, 1LE and Blazer. In their classes they are all above average. This thread is about replacing the 3. Do not assume that a 14.0 1/4 mile for the S197 V6 magically translates into a good chassis, or even one that's better than your 3. Bob has some good points that should reaffirm that. Bob also recommends looking at the S550 V6 as a midway point between S197 V6 prices and gen 6 Camaro V6 prices. Really, you should just wait until the gen 6 Camaro V6 is affordable. It's the chassis you actually want to drive.

- Back to the G37 for a second. I know the simplicity of the Mustang is a pro in your mind. However, I could still spin the argument around and say the G37 is about as fast (it is), but also adds the following: Comfort and convenience features, a real back seat with 4 doors, a much better chassis (yes, in spite of LL times, this is very well documented), and for really similar prices, maybe just a tad more for a nicer one? I can't imagine choosing an S197 V6 over a G37 when you consider the total package, especially the fact that it comes in RWD or AWD. That said, I CAN imagine choosing a gen 6 Camaro V6 over a G37. Alpha is very good and this has been true since the first V6 article that I defended and you said "no, the V6 is lame, period, forever." The S197 is like a 4th gen F-body. I would pass. You can do better.

- I do recommend actually driving stuff before you make a decision. The way things seem to work is you make a decision weeks or months in advance, and then drive something about 10 minutes before handing a check over. That's really not the best way to buy cars. Just go drive random stuff. I drove an STS-V and I'm glad I did, for example.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by kevm14 »

Don't recall if I posted this.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... ison-test/

Many quotes. This is the manual. The auto is a bit faster still.
At the track, the Infiniti shamed the Bimmer in every contest except for skidpad (a tie). In acceleration, the chase wasn’t even close, with the G37 ahead by a half-second at 60 mph—5.4 seconds versus 5.9—and leading by 6 mph at the quarter-mile. The G37’s gap was narrower but still significant in the lane change. In braking, its one-foot-out performance from 70 mph—159 feet versus the BMW’s 160—is almost certainly insignificant
I don't know if the G37XS got all the same hardware. I hope so. Then it would be even better than I thought.
The G37 Sport, designated by a red “S” on the tail—plus a subtly reshaped fascia and sill treatments—gets a six-speed manual, shorter final-drive gearing with a viscous limited slip, quicker steering, and very large brakes: 14.0-inch discs in front, 13.8s in back, all vented. Inside, there’s a highly supportive sport seat with power adjusters to tailor thigh and torso bolsters
These are properly athletic. Regardless of LL times this is going to feel closest to your 3 than anything other than a gen 6 Camaro. Given our roads, you would destroy an S197 down a curvy, imperfect back road.
All of our drivers were put off at first by the heavy, abrupt clutch feel, and the shift lever slipped into sixth gear only after a Google search. But by the second day of driving, the complaints were gone. This is a serious machine: planted, professional, poised. The steering always knows how to find straight-ahead, and the effort builds progressively as you turn. Unlike most of the others, the brakes are not overboosted. They have a linear feel, just right for holding the edge of the friction circle as you trail-brake into curves.
This one did 13.8 @ 104. That's slightly faster than the S197 V6 isn't it? And 5.2 0-60.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... road-test/

Long term test. All good praise here.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... road-test/
This G offers a near-perfect blend of ride, handling, practicality, and comfort. Living with it day to day continually reminded us, ironically, of just how good the BMW 3-series is. Occasionally, though, we step out of the free-car dream world we work in and come to grips with the fact that buying the BMW requires serious money. The G35’s selling point is great performance with good looks. If we did not quite have the budget to buy a 3-series, we would drive no farther than the nearest Infiniti dealer.
Basically skip the manual unless they improved it for 09. It was cheaper to service than their long term Altima. That speaks volumes and should settle your fears that it's "just a crappy Nissan product but with even more stuff to break." They are good cars. No, great cars.
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by bill25 »

I am not going to lie... I don't think I could buy the V6 Mustang. I was doing the numbers comparisons, but, at the end of the day, I really don't want that.

There is no question in my mind that I would like the V6 gen6 Camaro the best out of all of these V6 options (Even if the V6 is lame, period, forever! LOL). I will admit that the G37 has an edge with a better back seat.

I will need to watch depreciation as I continue to look at the options. If the gen5 SS V8 is less than the gen6 V6... that may be the way to go. (Better back seat, I prefer the styling - I don't dislike the 2016 gen6 though). I would also rather mod a regular SS than the 1LE so maybe down the road...

Also agree here:
You actually have ended up with vehicles above average in the driving dynamics department, namely the 3, 1LE and Blazer.
That wasn't an accident, I do view that as a priority.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by kevm14 »

Let's look at the Bonny GXP.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/pont ... lle-gxp-2/
As before, the Bonneville is still meant for running down the turnpike, belly to the ground. But now you can hammer this big front-wheel-drive car over a narrow, winding secondary road, as we did on the way to Jalama Beach, and it stays on top of its tires like a sport sedan.
As a whole, the Bonneville GXP is a strong piece. Rear-wheel drive is coming into fashion for cars such as this, but the Bonneville shows us that the standard set by the Detroit-label, full-size, front-wheel-drive sedan is far higher than critics realize.
Not terrible. Looking for a better speed reference than 0-60. But they claim 6.5. Which isn't super quick although it's still way faster than the 3.

Motorweek tested one.
https://www.motorweek.org/reviews/road_ ... ogram_2351

And they got a god-awful time although their numbers are always slow so there's that.
Get those tires spinning, and the Bonneville GXP romps to 60 in 7.8 seconds. The quarter mile ends in a best time of 16-seconds at 88 miles-per-hour. While only a few tenths quicker than the earlier Bonneville SSEi with its supercharged V-6, the GXP V-8 has a broader spread of power. Torque is instantly available, and is delivered in a smooth, even flow with none of the peaks or valleys of a boosted powerplant. Plus, it sounds great. The Northstar’s satisfying rumble, combined with a firm but not harsh ride, gives the GXP a sporty character that is unexpected in a full-size sedan.

The sporty feel of the GXP carries over to handling, where the Bonneville’s sport-tuned all-independent suspension delivers impressive agility for a big front-driver. The GXP turns in easily thanks to quick, but low feel, magnetic variable ratio steering. Understeer is mild, even when pushed hard, despite the car’s 3,790 pound weight. The GXP’s standard Stabilitrak stability control system helps maintain that prowess even on wet or broken pavement.
But the 2005 Pontiac Bonneville GXP is more than just a V-8. With secure front-drive traction, responsive handling, slick exterior, and roomy interior, the GXP is most attractive to anyone yearning for a big sedan with an attitude. Indeed, it’s great to see a V-8 and Bonneville together again. A heavenly match, made in Detroit, that we hope never again parts.
So aside from the actual numbers, this sounds relatively good. Going to need a third opinion on the numbers.

https://carbuzz.com/news/weekly-treasur ... eville-gxp

Turns out the G8 replaced this car. That's cool. Check out the pics. This article is only 1 year old so it was written about a very used car.

Here we go. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... son-tests/

Oh sweet, HUD was an option. No nav though. Bad news for Bill. He loves old, terrible nav. Oh wait, that's me.

This was kind of my point. FWD stuff was all on its last gen for the most part (other than the mid and small stuff like the Cobalt/Cruze/Malibu and then I guess the Impala is the sole exception that made it to Epsilon II).
GM is getting back its rear-drive religion, but the process is slow. While we wait, the "driving excitement" division offers this front-drive diversion.
That suspension includes a forked aluminum control arm in the rear that serves as both a trailing and diagonal arm. It is braced by a center-line-mounted (and hence, very long) toe-control link. This arrangement, odd-looking though it may be, nonetheless helped supply decent poise up to 7/10ths. Enough so that drivers preferred wheeling the Bonneville over the Ford in every situation, something of a feat for a nose-heavy front-driver.
Handling better than a Crown Vic! What a standard. Although it was pretty much a P71 which some say were good handling...

Anyway, decent poise up to 7/10ths is pretty perfect for daily situations.
The Northstar's extra wattage also sealed the Bonneville's second place. Spurs to the groin, it tackled 60 mph in 6.9 seconds and the quarter in 15.4 at 91 mph with only minor torque-induced swagger.
Hmm. That's.....kind of lame. Frankly that's solidly 4th gen Maxima levels of performance. Or even a bit slower than an Impala SS (my two favorite 90s icons).

I still maintain it's a nice overall package, but if you wanted low 14s, this ain't gonna do it.

https://blog.consumerguide.com/review-f ... onneville/

Production numbers. I guess it was 04-05 production, totaling 6,313 which makes it quite a bit more rare than the CTS-V1.

Uh oh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_B ... 80%932005)

It was on the G-platform! Bill, it's destiny.
Related Oldsmobile Aurora
Buick LeSabre
Cadillac Seville
But in all seriousness, that means this thing will feel WAAAY more solid than any W-body.

More info. https://www.motortrend.com/features/030 ... p-feature/
And here's where this saga gets interesting: sometime between February and October, the GXP's supercharged 3.8/4T65E drivetrain lost out to a 4.4-liter, naturally-aspirated V8 connected to a stronger 4T80E transmission.
4T80E confirmed. Waaaaay better trans than the 4T60E or 4T65E. Does this mean some early 04 GXPs had the supercharged 3800? Something to watch out for.
However, the GXP will share the Caddy's stronger tranny. Unfortunately, this strength comes with a price: the 4T80E is nearly a hundred pounds heavier, at 292 pounds versus 195 for the 4T65E. It has been estimated that a 24 percent driveline loss exists with this trans, which is higher than the 4T65E's estimated 21 percent. The 80 does have slightly higher gear ratios down low--2.96 and 1.62 for First and Second, as compared to 2.92 and 1.56 for the 65. But when factoring in the driveline loss and extra weight, we suspect that the 285-horse, naturally aspirated GXP won't be any faster than the original concept's 270-horse 3.8. Consider the inferior weight transfer and other unpleasantness associated with a front-drive, V8-powered vehicle which will top 3,900 pounds, and we're looking at mid-14s in the 95 mph range on a good day. Not lightning-quick, but it will still beat the SSEi's mid-15s like a stray dog.

The Bonneville GXP is currently slated to replace the supercharged SSEi for the 2004 model year. Conversion to GXP status will likely take place through a combination of production line and post-production changes. No production run number has been set, but look for consistency with the current yearly SSEi sales.
Ahhh. So it's a heavier trans with more loss. That explains why, without being all that much heavier, and not having that much less power, it's, in practice, considerably slower than the Impala SS. But with a self-destructive transmission, is that of any practical value? I mean you can roll the dice. People have enjoyed them. Comes at a cost though.

I don't think it ever even ran the mid 14s @ 95 that they predicted (that's what my STS does though, which has more power and more weight).

Here is a Hemmings article that was never published in 2004 so they published it in 2014. That has to be some kind of insult to the car. https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/0 ... eville-gxp
I got this neighbor, see. Got a refrigerator-white box Nova and a 1954 Mercury parked outside. Wrenches on that Nova daily; you know it's 4 p.m. 'cause you can hear him messing with the idle on the Nova. His daily driver GMC truck is slammed, suede and sounds like it got indigestion after swallowing Grumpy Jenkins's Camaro. Clearly he likes cars. But I've had a ton of cool cars dropped off for me to drive - Corvettes, Mustangs, Cadillacs, V-10 Mopars - and he doesn't even give a second look. Even my Montego, big and blue and making noises that rival his truck, doesn't register comment. That's cool. He's into his thing. No big deal.

The afternoon that the black and freshly-detailed Bonneville is dropped off, and I inch down the street, struggling to find street parking, my neighbor, who has never so much as looked at me, is utterly transfixed. He walks down the block after me. Trailing me. Stalking me. Big smile. The teeth won't stop. Neither do the questions. He claims he hadn't seen this generation of Bonneville before. Ever. Which is a little shocking, considering they've been around since 2000.

"Bonneville? They still make them? Manohman. I wasn't sure what that was when it pulled in, but this is American style, boy. V-8 power? It's a Northstar? Woo hoo! Front drive? In a car this big? You're kidding! Eighteen-inch wheels?" He peeks inside. "Leather? Suede? Man." I hit the key. Dual exhausts rumble. "Aww yeah, that's what I’m talking about! How much? Thirty-five grand? That ain't bad!" In truth, it was $38,635, but that's with options, including an absurd $1,100 for a sunroof and a surprising $595 trunk-mounted 12CD changer. If he'd had the down payment in his pocket, Neighbor Dude would have waved his wallet at me.
the all-aluminum 32-valve dual overhead-camshaft powerplant, putting 275 horsepower and 300 pound-feet of torque out of 278 cubic inches, is a gem. The former top-dog supercharged V-6 that was available in the now-deceased SSEi always seemed a little frenetic for a car of this size, giving the impression (despite sufficient power) that it was working too hard to achieve it; the V-8 gives it a certain relaxed confidence and poise. You're never going to win any pinkslips at the drags with it, but the power builds to a top-end crescendo that's more muscle car than anything else the Bonneville has had under the hood since the big-cube 1960s, though with four cams spinning away, the sheer low-end grunt of a big-cube two-valve pushrod engine simply isn't there.

As for Neighbor Dude's question as to why a car that big is front-wheel-drive, well, we've all been pondering that one for years, but the 4T80E transaxle shifts smoothly enough and lets the front tires make some amusing noises when you switch the traction control off. It also allows 22 MPG cruising at a steady 78 MPG MPH, which sadly enough is roughly in the league of a turbocharged four-cylinder Dodge SRT4.
Geez.
Like the supercharged Impala SS we drove last year, this is a car that could have been around for a decade or more: All of the components were available, but no one thought to cook up this particular recipe with the ingredients they had in house. Unlike that miserable SS, which was perhaps the most awful new car we'd driven in a decade, the Bonneville actually seems to work. Enlarging the basic GM front-wheel-drive sedan recipe seems to have done the trick, mostly.
Well these people love theirs.
autobug2 7 years ago
My oldest friend still drives his--pearl white, tan leather everything, every option incl. moonroof, and the legendary Northstar V8. He loves it. Driven it myself a few times, and its a solid performer alright!
AMZ 7 years ago
I own a 2004 Bonneville Gxp greystone metallic with 181,000 miles and going strong. Best thing about it is the looks I get when bmw's, Lexus and Mercedes get smoked in the highway!!
RG 7 years ago
I just picked up an '05 White Gold GXP, with 150k miles.... for $3,500! It's an amazing car! I love it! Wish I had one years ago! I'm even in the process of a couple handling mods to tighten her up. Would you believe at the gas station yesterday, some guy thought it was a 2016! Flattered but couldn't help but laugh out loud!
PonchoPete 6 years ago
I am obviously a Pontiac guy, but more so a Bonneville guy (89, 94 SSEi, and 2x2005s). As much as I also love my G8 GT, this Bonne is the best balanced all around car I have owned. Grey 2005 GXP. It has its issues over 100k, but thinking of finding another low mile GXP. After all, it IS the LAST Bonneville.

I liked it so much that I bought a 2005 SLE with same body styling with super low miles (only year SLE body panels matched GXP).
Hmmmm. Not sure about this one. Not saying it's impossible but I do know that many of these were misdiagnosed based on another cooling system issue that's much cheaper to fix.
Captain Bob 6 years ago
I have an '05 pearl white one. Love the car, the looks, the performance. Hate feeding it. The car has been in the family since (almost) new - 5000 miles. I just turned 98,000 on it and had the infamous Northstar blown head gaskets and oil leaks. I decided to have the engine redone with SureGrip studs. Where would I find as nice a used car for the price the engine repair was going to cost? With that investment I will be driving it for awhile.
Here you go. This is more what I thought was the case.
Abe 8 months ago
I have an 05 with 76k miles. I as a mechanic laugh every time I read someone saying N and issues. Most people are not speaking from experience and don't realize that by 2005 the studs were changed to longer, thicker, and coarser threads similar to the corvettes and the head design was also changed virtually eliminating all previous N problems. A simple Google search would verify this info in design changed. However, the worst years of the N were 98-99 - ask any Cadillac owner - where most of the bad name for N began.

By 2004 midyear these changes were made and by 2005 issues were almost non-existent. I say "almost" for the simple fact that people suck at maintenance. Especially by the time cars are on their 3rd and 4th owners. Simple maintenance, like not following scheduled flushing of the coolant and driving the car with leaking water pumps, (typical with GM) would cause overheating and of course blown head gaskets. You can find any car including Hondas, Toyotas, Lexus etc. with blown head gaskets.

I would not say it's even remotely common to have a blown head gasket in 2004-2005 Bonneville's with only some 4700 being produced. I would be more worried about the transmission in the six cylinder version than I ever would of a 2004-2005 N engine.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by kevm14 »

kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by kevm14 »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNtXVtNQrZo

C55 AMG In-Depth Driving Review - 8 Years Owning the Car!
8,050 views • Nov 16, 2020
• I FINALLY was able to get the files situated for this video after filming it about three months ago (also got partially distracted with other life things). Enjoy my in depth driving review video of my C55 AMG. One of the best cars I've ever owned!!
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Mazda3 Replacement

Post by kevm14 »

Zeroing in on the ideal Mercedes for Bill, a statement that is both hilarious and true.

The C55 is still a good candidate in theory but they are rare. Slightly less rare is the CLK. It is based on the W203 and called the C209 or more commonly the W209 (effectively a C-class coupe but actually adds 5" of total length, maybe partly for proportions and partly for packaging reasons), so all of the goodness still applies. Many reviews suggest it is a nice driving car with good room up front and shockingly good room for adults in the back, too. And they are generally undervalued by the market.
https://mbworld.org/articles/mercedes-b ... d-bargain/

Many are convertibles so have to sort those out of the searches. There are several V8 models to choose from:

CLK500 was made from 2003-2006. It uses the naturally aspirated M113, which is architecturally what's in my E55. They made 302 hp. I think 0-60 was like 5.7 or so? I need the full stats to develop a better picture but that could be fun. They would have received the 7G trans from 2005 up. So 03-04 was 5G only. I don't know that I'd hunt down an 03-04 just for the older trans but something to keep in mind. Same years and engines and transmissions as the W211 E-class, with the exception that I think the RWD cars got the 7G trans in 2004 instead of 2005. AWD kept the 5G. But only V6 CLKs were available with AWD as far as I have gathered.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... pe-page-1/

CLK55 AMG was made from 2003-2006 and uses the souped up and hand-built M113 with somewhere in the 362 hp range. This will run a 4.7 0-60 and a 13.2 @ 107 or so. Pretty quick. All of these used the 5G trans.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... road-test/

CLK550 was made from 07-09 and uses the M273 which is the same engine as what's in my S550. Makes 382 hp and even more torque. All of these use the 7G trans. Early 2007s are afflicted with the timing gear issue based on engine VIN. These cars will be just as fast as the CLK55 AMG. Actually I think they are a bit faster, and they should be, with an additional 20 hp and better transmission. They probably won't handle quite as well but judging from reviews they are very well sorted and great for daily driving (which is what this will be used for). Plus these are getting to be very late CLKs and would be considered to be better sorted from a Mercedes perspective. You avoid the first years of the 7G trans and if you can avoid the timing gear issue M273, you probably have a pretty decent car. Again, same engine/transmission/years as the W211 E-class. A non-timing gear afflicted M273 is really just as reliable as the M113, and tends to have fewer oil leak issues. They also get better fuel economy and have even broader torque characteristics. Nice engines.

What I don't know is how rare any of these are. I do think these are all attainable for well within budget and an older CLK500 I'm sure is well under $10k.

For even money I'd probably lean toward the 550. Better fuel economy, a little faster, and other improvements. If the CLK55 was cheaper I would absolutely consider it. In the real world where supply is constrained, it will be a matter of which is available first.

It looks like they refreshed the platform in 2005 or 2006, with the introduction of the 7G trans. Here is what Wiki says:
2004
Handling improvements in the form of modified axle bearings and more direct steering[26]

2005 facelift
A facelift was introduced in June 2005. Major changes include:

Exterior design changes including: redesigned front and rear bumpers, grille with three louvres instead of four, and restyled taillights[27]
COMAND 2.0 upgraded to DVD-based COMAND-APS system, introducing iPod integration[28]
Updated center console with improved layout and switches
New 7G-Tronic automatic transmission replaces the old 5G-Tronic system[29]
The CLK 240, CLK 320, and CLK 55 AMG are replaced by newer models[30][31]

2007
Introduction of CLK 550 and CLK 63 AMG models[32]
Introduction of Sports and AMG Sports package[33]
This is common with many automakers but Mercedes has been on the facelift bandwagon for at least 20 years now. They run models for a good number of years so in the middle they facelift it and that can be any number of updates, sometimes powertrain, some interior changes, styling updates and things like that. Maybe certain options become standard and maybe some go away (that can happen year by year, too). In the Mercedes world, all else equal, people say facelift cars are more reliable than non-facelift cars. I think this has some merit when talking about NEW cars, or nearly new cars (i.e. my 2 year old Mercedes was at the dealer 4 times for some nonsense). From a used car perspective I don't put much weight in this because whether it is an 03 or an 07 it's been around the block and any terrible issue has been resolved if the car has any mileage on it. Of course, certain terrible issues (like the M273 timing gear issue) can still present themselves for the first time in 2022 so you have to be a savvy buyer.

My S550 and E55 are both pre-facelift cars. The 07 AMG E-class became the E63 (still on W211) and in 2010 Mercedes refreshed the S-class with LED DRLs and other updates such as the NTG3.5 COMAND update (but NO engine changes). So it varies.

Bonus mention:
CLK63 AMG. I'd just count this out but these are probably a riot to drive. 0-60 in the low 4s.
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