PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

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kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

http://www.motortrend.com/news/psa-reac ... D5402C3892

This tells you what PSA is since these European conglomerates are never memorable in their makeup to a typical American:
PSA Group runs the Peugeot, Citroën, and DS car brands sold outside the U.S. Acquiring Opel would propel PSA ahead of Renault in terms of market share in Europe. With 16.3 percent of the market, PSA would come in second place just behind Volkswagen.
Really they are all like that. FCA and VW to make two other large ones that own more brands than you first realize.

Anyway, my first reaction was....ok aside from profitability issues (which, being honest, is the only real reason this kind of deal would happen), I thought the Opel brand was useful to GM. Many things have come to us from the Opel division over the years. Here is a list of some of the CURRENT Opel-related vehicles. To be clear, these are either shared platforms or the majority of the engineering work was done at Opel:
- Buick Regal (Opel Insignia)
- GM Epsilon II is said to have been developed mainly by Opel - long list on this platform, such as Lacrosse, Malibu, Impala and XTS
- Saturn Astra (Opel Astra)
- Saturn L series (Opel Vectra B) and really the entire GM2900 platform, which was used famously on the late 90s/early 2000s Saab 9-3 and longer on the 9-5.

Some previous examples:
- The wiki says Opel primarily developed the J-body (really??)
- Cadillac Catera (Opel Omega)
- Wiki also says Opel primarily developed the original Epsilon platform, which was also reasonably well regarded in its time. Those vehicles include the mid-2000s Malibu, Pontiac G6, Saturn Aura and the last gen Saab 9-3.

Looking back, the best things Opel did for GM I think it is pretty obvious that it was the Epsilon and Epsilon II platforms. Epsilon was way better than the platforms it replaced (N-body, like Jamie's old Malibu and GM2900). Epsilon II made even further leaps. Actually, it was the basis for other successful modern platforms:
E2XX
E2XX is the successor to the Epsilon II platform. It is a fork of the Epsilon II platform, consistent with other platform revamps, such as D2XX (based on Delta II).
The E2XX platform targets weight reduction, improved interior, and longer wheelbases. The E2XX is utilized in the redesigned 2016 Chevrolet Malibu.
P2XX
P2XX is the longer variant of the E2XX platform. It is expected to be used in the 2017 Buick LaCrosse and next generation Chevrolet Impala.
C1XX
C1XX is the crossover variant of the E2XX platform, replacing the Theta Premium and Lambda platforms. It underpins the 2017 Cadillac XT5 and soon to be followed the 2017 GMC Acadia in regular wheelbase form, while the 2018 Chevrolet Traverse and 2018 Buick Enclave will utilize the long wheelbase variant.
Fun trivia (citation needed, perhaps):
When the platform debuted, there was talk of an "Epsilon Wide" derivative, which was supposed to have provided the underpinnings for the Buick LaCrosse and Saab 9-5. However, the program was cancelled and the LaCrosse was put on the W platform
All that said, and considering the apparent dividends GM is enjoying from what started as Epsilon II, I don't quite understand why they'd want to sell. Unless profit is substandard.

My other thoughts on this are that Ford Europe continues to enjoy a single brand which matters when the internet is so global, and GM is going to be even worse off from a European brand presence (this sale may include the Vauxhall brand, too). Unless they are going to do it better than Opel was doing for them. I just don't know.

EDIT: More problems. In late 2013, GM announced it will drop Chevrolet in Europe and focus on Opel/Vauxhall. Wiki also says that GM has lost, overall, about $18B in Europe. Goddamn.

You know what? Then forget it. Drop 'em.

EDIT 2: This guy seems to have a point.
Its not like anyone is going to be making big money in Europe anytime soon. The luxury brands keep going down market in search of volume. Cheap models are coming in from Asia and Eastern Europe. The small companies are all there. The big companies divide their sales by offering multiple brands. All while $10 a gallon gas makes it difficult to sell anything bigger than a bread box.
That said I think Opel sales will skyrocket as soon as PSA takes over the brand. The media may even start writing some positive stories about the brand instead of knit picking it to death as they do now.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

This article prompted me to look at those conglomerates. Let's see what the lay of the land is in 2017, at least for multi-brand companies that have a major European presence/history:

BMW
They own their own brand of cars but also Mini and Rolls-Royce.
Fun fact: The first gen BMW X1 was RWD-based, related to the 3-series. The second gen (2016+) is based on the UKL platform, which is FWD-based, and shared with the Mini Countryman.

Daimler AG
Most familiarly, they own Mercedes Benz. Also Daimler truck and bus but also Daimler van. Many familiar brands fall under all of these umbrellas, including: Maybach, Smart, Freightliner, MB-branded OTR trucks, Mitsubishi Fuso (did not know this), Thomas buses (wow - you would know them as having ridden on at least one Thomas school bus in your life), Sterling trucks (defunct), Western Star (double wow - I would have assumed they were US owned), Detroit Diesel (*sob*).
Fun fact: they own nearly 90% of Mitsubishi Fuso and 5% of Aston Martin.

VW
First, VW is huge. Like #1 global automaker huge (if not #1, very close, depending on which year you are talking about). Alright, now for the list. It is long. Here we go:
- Audi
- Lamborghini
- Bentley
- Bugatti
- Porsche
- Ducati
- MAN (trucks, probably other big stuff)
- Scania (ditto)
- Skoda
- VW car brand itself obviously

Now they don't own all of these outright but I guess a controlling share at a minimum, and at max, basically the whole thing.
Fun fact: I will go with the ever-amusing 1937 Nazi Germany starting point (with the Beetle). Alright that was weak. Total global Beetle production from 1938 through 2003: ~21.5M.

FCA
This one is less complicated, or at least more memorable for me. Brands include: Dodge, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Fiat, Maserati, Jeep and Ram.
Fun fact: Wait, no Ferrari? That's right, I learned, just today, that on Jan 2016, Ferrari spun off as an independent company. Isn't that interesting.

PSA
There is a lot of history in the wiki. Not the least of which is that apparently GM and PSA were going to go into some kind of alliance/merger (GM would own 7% of PSA), but this basically reversed itself before amounting to anything. Major brands are really just Peugeot and Citroen.
Fun fact: PSA owned Chrysler Europe in 1978. You could write a novel about Chrysler of course.

Renault Group
Most obviously to me, there is the Nissan-Renault alliance. Renault has a 43% stake in Nissan and Nissan has a 15% stake in Renault. Renault does not own Nissan and vice versa is also true. I suppose the only real brands that can come out of this entry are Renault and Nissan.

I could do the other main brands, and also touch on partnerships or alliances. That is really a different discussion as there is plenty of history there.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

Related: http://www.motortrend.com/news/fca-knoc ... 0B962F46EC
A Merger with FCA makes little sense for GM. Why buy dodge when you could just revive Pontiac? Why buy Ram when you have Chevy and GMC? Why buy Chrysler when you have Buick? Why buy FIAT for any reason?

And Alfa and Maserati sales are miniscule.
Marchionne just wants to capitalize on competitors's R&D because he is to cheap to invest in new technologies and too big of a coward to have the right strategy to direct company spending. Chrysler needs to get serious about new smaller sedans because low fuel prices won't last forever and also about EV development as well as autonomous cars. Under Marchionne's direction FCA seems like a dying automaker. They have no new clever concepts that show the future direction of the company and is a reflection of the management that has no clue what to do.
And finally:
He should merge with PSA-Opel instead. They have the synergies and PSA-Opel needs to come to the US. That would be a win-win.

GM doesn't need Chrysler Dodge and Ram, PSA-Opel does.
bill25
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Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by bill25 »

I agree with all of the above and:
Fun fact: Wait, no Ferrari? That's right, I learned, just today, that on Jan 2016, Ferrari spun off as an independent company. Isn't that interesting.
It is smart. Why in the world would you want to associate Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat and maybe even Alfa with Ferrari? Ferrari has a real pedigree. The others have a reputation for never being good enough for pedigree.

What I could have seen is having Maserati and Ferrari (maybe Alfa) breaking off to be together and then selling the rest of the garbage off...
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

FCA and PSA have actually merged now.

https://www.autonews.com/automakers-sup ... vares-says

To cue a Youtube comments meme...

Alfa Romeo: Our brand is #1 in unreliability
FCA-PSA: Hold my beer

Of course this joke doesn't really work because Alfa was already under the FCA umbrella...with all the other "quality" products.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

kevm14 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:28 am All that said, and considering the apparent dividends GM is enjoying from what started as Epsilon II, I don't quite understand why they'd want to sell. Unless profit is substandard.
So check this out.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/heres-s ... 1B381CCA35

There is a lot here to go over. But GM's claim is that FCA somehow meddled with GM's UAW contracts and actually caused the lack of profitability that lead them to sell it, though the CEO also claims that there are no regrets on the sale (probably so the defense doesn't claim sour grapes).
General Motors CEO Mary Barra says she is OK with the prospect of FCA owning GM's former Opel and Vauxhall brands but she is not OK with the idea that fraudulent bargaining by FCA and the UAW resulted in higher labor costs over many years.

The two positions show how complicated, competitive, and incestuous the auto industry is.

GM has filed a federal racketeering lawsuit that accuses FCA of years of bribery and corruption and that payoffs to the UAW gave Fiat Chrysler a competitive advantage in terms of labor contracts dating back to 2009. Both FCA and the UAW have denounced the allegations and say past negotiations and agreements were not compromised. Personnel from both FCA and the union implicated in payoffs to UAW leaders have been charged.
Unions use a tactic called pattern bargaining where a general agreement is reached with one of the three Detroit-based automakers that the other two are expected to match. The basic agreement is then tweaked to the individual companies. Barra says facts GM has gathered show the historic manipulation of the last three contracts is more than pattern bargaining differences.

"There's a difference between pattern bargaining and then pattern bargaining that's based on briberies and corruption," adds GM spokesman Tony Cervone. GM's case intends to show fraudulent representation resulted in advantageous agreements.

The lawsuit comes as FCA is in negotiations for a new four-year agreement. And it also lands with a thud as FCA finalizes a $50 billion deal to merge with PSA Group of Europe to create what would be the fourth-largest automaker in the world.
You know what would be great? None of this union baloney. Anyone can see it adds a friction/tax to what should be free market transactions.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

https://www.motortrend.com/news/fiat-ch ... 938A35B6DD
FCA wasn't a great name in the first place, and took some getting used to, but at least it was easy to say. Adding PSA to that—so, FCA-PSA—would be too much alphabet soup, though, and the firms have too many large brands to smoothly integrate into the corporate name, and doing so may have caused the "kids" to fight over which ones the parents love most. The combined company will cover FCA's Chrysler, Dodge, Maserati, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Jeep, and Ram brands, and Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Opel, and Vauxhall from the PSA side.
We knew a new name was coming (the companies began examining possibilities as soon as the merger agreement was official), and we didn't expect Chrysler or Fiat would again be applied—in fact, these are the brands we think have the greatest odds of being phased out altogether. But we didn't think it would be this...weird, and the announcement led to an insane flurry of jokes in one of the MotorTrend Slack channels, including references to knockoff space shuttles, home-bagged juicing machines, how Stellantis is both the official earth-side transport company and official aspartame of Space Force, and how it sounds like a dollar-store skin medication requiring a long list of side-effect disclaimers. ("Ask your doctor if Stellantis is right for you. Side effects may include shedding of redundant car brands, an ever-worsening case of crossoveritus for your Jeeps, and an irrational desire to install 700-plus-hp V-8s in most of your aging lineup. Oh, and now you're French. ")
The last part is perfect.
kevm14
Posts: 15200
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: PSA looking to make an offer on Opel

Post by kevm14 »

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