Edmunds: ZL1 1LE vs GT500 vs Hellcat Red Eye

[kevm14]

https://youtu.be/snBCRyxsUgk

Well then.

[kevm14]

This guy gets it. Price is relevant.

[kevm14]

Stealing this thread for other publications.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... nl19429384

I am actually surprised by the result. The ZL1 1LE is not a good street car but there is the regular ZL1 for that. And man all the Camaros are tremendous values. I'm sorry, I don't think I really can get behind a $93-94k Mustang or Challenger. The top dog Camaro ZL1 1LE is $76k as tested and that seems expensive enough.

Yeah, the Camaro ZL1 1LE is $16,800 less than the Challenger and $17,885 less than the GT500. And sure, that gave it a serious boost in our scoring. But its relatively modest price is only part of why this track-oriented Chevy took the honors here.

Our affection for the current-generation Camaro is well documented. It has the finest-handling, best-steering chassis ever shoved under a pony car. It is a machine of great precision and trustworthiness. Carrying the least weight and riding on Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R near-slicks, the Camaro manages the shortest stops from 100 mph (11 feet shorter than the GT500 and 35 less than the portly Challenger) and the most outright grip (a stunning 1.17 g's on the skidpad). With a talented 'shoe in control, the Camaro is quickest to 60 mph, a feat it manages in 3.4 seconds. At 11.5 seconds in the quarter-mile, it's only a tenth off the much more powerful GT500 because one had traction and one did not.

At Willow, the Camaro's electronically controlled limited-slip differential was able to sort out the axle lockup to better effect than the GT500's Torsen diff. Its Performance Traction Management system, which controls the diff and stability-control settings, acts like a patient driving instructor, giving you a bit more leash each step up its settings. The 1LE's steering fidelity allows the driver to monitor front-end-grip levels with unparalleled accuracy. It felt stable and in control at all times. Its tires never registered as greater than "warm" in the instrument-panel readout despite prolonged abuse (it was only 60 degrees that day, though). And unlike with the GT500, we didn't need any tools to ready the Camaro for laps. It's raring to go whenever.

Of the three, the Camaro is the most rewarding and confidence-inspiring to drive. That Chevy managed to achieve this performance with the least horsepower and the lowest sticker price reveals a variety of efficiency as difficult to achieve as miles per gallon, and ever so much more thrilling.

Backfires: https://backfires.caranddriver.com/foru ... 5-30870010

Ha

The truth is, the Camaro may be using the most HP a front engine non-AWD car can actually put to the pavement. The Mustang and Hellcat just burn up their greater HP in smoke and fishtailing. This is why the Vette is now mid engine.

[kevm14]

And the 1/4 mile comparison:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3085 ... nl19429384

The Camaro's launch control programming can be beat. By doing things the old-fashioned way, it jumps off the line the quickest, blasting to 30 mph in 1.4 seconds. The Dodge and the Ford are just behind it, both reaching that speed in 1.7 seconds. Although the Chevy is the first to reach 60 mph—in 3.4 seconds—the GT500 just keeps pulling. It catches its Camaro rival at just over 90 mph, rocketing to 100 mph in 7.1 seconds—three-tenths of a second quicker than the Camaro—and blasting through the quarter-mile in 11.4 seconds at 132 mph. The Camaro follows in 11.5 seconds at 124 mph, and the Challenger Hellcat Redeye is a tenth of a second later doing 128 mph.

This means you can keep up with a GT500 up to 90 or 100 mph with a regular ZL1. Which you can buy used for, what, $50k now? Well some of that is from a sticky tire launch on the 1LE I guess.

We might be in a horsepower war, but sometimes too much power can be a problem. On non-prepped surfaces with manufacturer-recommended tire pressures, the Challenger SRT Hellcat Redeye, with its massive 797 ponies, had trouble jumping off the line cleanly. Its launch-control programming isn't the best of the bunch, either. Its aggressive intervention to prevent wheelslip can easily be beat with a precise right foot. Launch control did prove to be the quickest method in the 760-hp GT500, though, and it was set to the lowest rpm allowed (1200 rpm) to prevent igniting a rear-tire fire.

The heaviest car loses. The Challenger Hellcat Redeye Widebody weighed in at a portly 4529 pounds. That's 470 pounds heavier than the winning Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 (at 4059 pounds) and 643 pounds heavier than the Chevy Camaro ZL1 1LE (which weighed 3886 pounds). All these engines are big supercharged V-8s, because horsepower. The GT500 is equipped with a double-overhead-cam 5.2-liter V-8; the Camaro ZL1 1LE is powered by the heroic pushrod 6.2-liter V-8; and for the Challenger Hellcat Redeye, it's the boat-anchor iron-block 6.2-liter V-8.

But the poll at the bottom reveals the truth, in a pick between the ZL1 1LE and GT500, it's showing 66% Mustang. Of course, Mustang winning the popularity contest doesn't mean they will sell more GT500s than GM will sell ZL1s. In fact, they probably won't, given the cost...but it will be the one that people "lust" after more. For whatever that's worth.

Backfires: https://backfires.caranddriver.com/foru ... 7-30853297

Corvette C8 they tested recently was faster than all three at 11.2 in the 1/4 mile, far faster to 60, gets decent gas mileage, pay no gas guzzler fee and likely faster around a road course. Similar price.

Much lower price really. A well optioned base Stingray should come in around $75k and the Dodge and Ford are over $90k.

I'm not sure about the road course part but yeah, this is a point worth making.

Have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzXzsjkNwVE&t=326s Audi R8 vs Tesla Model S P100D Ludicrous mode, 30 mph roll. At higher speeds such as on the freeway, the Tesla would not even get that initial short lived lead and the difference would be even greater. Even the mighty Taycan Turbo S tends to loose quite a bit of steam at speed. It's just at a higher speed than the Tesla, but it still looses acceleration faster than the other cars here.
See: http://dragtimes.com/vbox-60-130-times.php
It has all sorts of acceleration metrics, but also answers how well it would do out on the highway, not just a standing start, with 60 to 130 mph times:
Tesla Model S P100D Ludicrous Plus Mode: 9.180 secs
Porsche Taycan Turbo S: 7.700 secs
2013 Ford GT500 (stock by Snorman): 7.890 secs
2020 Ford GT500 (stock by IconicGT500): 6.200 secs
2020 Ford GT500 (modified by IconicGT500): 5.770 secs
It would not be competitive in its homeland either topping out at 162, although there's the issue of recharging when going flat out too, but that's another topic. This pooping out as speeds climb is an endemic issue with EVs, particularly those that use multiple motors. Massive loss of torque, either a little or a lot of loss in power, and the general loss of synchronizing between the motors and losses within each motor as rpms rise is an issue. Search for hysteresis and eddy current losses in induction motors. Have you noticed even the those with large 4 digit peak combined power figures via 4 motors struggle to get past 200 mph? It takes less power to get the same ICE car to 300 mph

Trap speed doesn't lie. So if you have a fast car and encounter a Tesla, just make sure to roll race and you'll probably be OK.

[kevm14]

And finally another article with just the ZL1 1LE and GT500.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... o-zl1-1le/

The GT500's as-tested price of $94,665 is nearly $19,000 more than the Camaro. The base price is $73,995, but our Velocity Blue test car was equipped with the $18,500 Carbon Fiber Track Package, which includes 20-inch carbon-fiber wheels, Michelin Sport Cup 2 tires, adjustable carbon-fiber wing, leather-trimmed Recaro seats, and adjustable front strut top mounts for aggressive camber settings. Don't bring the kids; the package also deletes the Mustang's rear seat.

At these prices and with no back seat, I see no point to the Mustang over a wide variety of used and new Corvettes.

The Shelby's engine is significantly louder than the Camaro's, and the Mustang is also heavier. At 4,059 pounds, the Mustang weighs nearly 200 pounds more than its rival.

With nearly 200 pounds less mass and with a weight distribution closer to 50/50, the 2019 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE is just as quick as the Mustang despite making less horsepower. At the test track, it beats the GT500 to 60 mph by .2 second, 3.4 seconds versus 3.6. However, the Ford's rear tires eventually hook up, and its horsepower takes charge. It then outruns the Camaro to 100 mph by .3 second, and by 150 mph the gap is stretched to more than 4.0 seconds.

But these are muscle cars, and it's the quarter-mile that really matters. In that race, it's essentially a dead heat. A tire-smoking, fighting-for-traction dead heat, with the Mustang's 11.4-second run at 132 mph just besting the Camaro's time of 11.5 seconds at 124 mph.

That 132mph trap is awesome but using it on the street is not super practical it turns out.

Even with its 2.85:1 final drive ratio, the Camaro averaged a fuel economy of just 14 mpg, a single mile per gallon ahead of the Mustang, which has 3.73 gears. Its range, however, is far superior to the Shelby's. The Mustang's fuel tank is only 16 gallons, so it's sucked dry after only 200 miles of highway driving.

At the test track, the Camaro also outgripped and outstopped the Mustang, with a 1.17-g skidpad performance and stops from 70 mph in 137 feet and from 100 mph in 268 feet. The Mustang trailed but not by much. Its 1.13-g skidpad performance is impressive considering it carries 56.6 percent of its 4059 pounds over the front wheels. It stops from 70 mph in 142 feet and from 100 mph in 279 feet.

I am relieved and also excited at how well the previous model year Camaro ZL1 1LE stacks up against the GT500. I think long ago I said it would but that was just a guess. I should find my own quote.

Unfortunately, the Mustang's steering is numb compared to the Camaro's, and its chassis isn't as sorted. The ZL1 is more stable, and it puts its power down better with its wider rubber, a more sophisticated traction-control system, and an excellent electronic limited-slip differential. Toss it around, and the Shelby feels smaller and lighter than it is, but it's also a bit skittish and less forgiving. It always feels like one false move, one mistake, one miscalculation, and you could easily end up in a ditch.

Although both cars offer the kind of speed better suited for the track, the Camaro is easier to drive quickly. The fun is more accessible and therefore more easily enjoyed. But the sacrifice for all that stability is ride comfort. The Mustang's suspension is al dente, while the Camaro's is uncooked. It's like hitting your head on the headliner again stiff. By comparison, a standard Camaro ZL1 with the magnetorheological dampers, which are also used in the GT500, rides with the pillowy, cloudlike float of a 1976 Eldorado convertible.

With the Corvette going mid-engine, these two machines, along with Dodge's Hellcats, are keeping the traditional American fire-breathing, rear-drive, front-engine muscle car alive. It's a commendable feat considering our society continues to accelerate toward autonomy and electrification like a drunken hipster on a rented moped. But after two days of track testing and several days of driving around the barren desert landscape of Southern California, a winner, a clear winner, of this comparison test, failed to materialize. Whatever you're driving at any given moment feels like the best one.

Both the Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 and the Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE live up to the hype. Either will put a big dumb smile on your face while shredding an expensive set of summer tires in the process. But these are sophisticated cars. Their ability to turn and stop are only surpassed by their unbridled power and tire-destroying skills. But we pick winners here, and the winner is the Camaro. Its biggest advantage is that it's simply a better value. There's a lot we love about the GT500—the ride quality, interior design, and its more sophisticated powertrain—but the more affordable ZL1 1LE manages to match or surpass the Shelby's performance while offering a much longer list of features. Spend the stack of money saved on gas and Goodyears. You're going to need them.

That comment about whatever one you're driving at the moment feels like the best one really does explain it. The GT500 is very good. But the Camaro still won this comparison.

Backfires: https://backfires.caranddriver.com/foru ... 9-30540966

Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.8 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.1 sec
Vs
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.9 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.1 sec
Seems to me that having a horsepower and torque peak as high as the Mustang is hurting it. Instead of chasing the big numbers, maybe they would have been better served at focusing on power under the curve.

The Camaro is the one on the top, GT500 on the bottom. It's pretty simple - the Camaro has a traction and torque advantage at lower speeds. The Mustang has a wicked top end and over 100 will simply walk away. Normally I like trap speed but I think the Camaro is a better integrated package. Well, Car and Driver thinks so, too.

[bill25]

With the Corvette going mid-engine, these two machines, along with Dodge's Hellcats, are keeping the traditional American fire-breathing, rear-drive, front-engine muscle car alive.

Not for long if the gen 6 Camaro is the end again...

The Shelby's engine is significantly louder than the Camaro's

Come on GM! Turn it up!

The Mustang's suspension is al dente, while the Camaro's is uncooked. It's like hitting your head on the headliner again stiff. By comparison, a standard Camaro ZL1 with the magnetorheological dampers, which are also used in the GT500, rides with the pillowy, cloudlike float of a 1976 Eldorado convertible.

Based on this, not sure I would want a standard Camaro ZL1 with the magnetorheological dampers. I'll take a 1LE. Unfortunately, I am not sure how many of these they are actually selling.

[kevm14]

I think it's way too stiff for the street. The ZL1 with MR can be set stiffer if you want - they were making a point about ride quality, not handling. The regular ZL1 has excellent handling.

I think the Z28 was the same. Those spool valve dampers are good stuff but they're tuned for the track.

***break***

The gen 6 ZL1 is closer to the ZL1 1LE than it is to the gen 5 ZL1, which I think says a lot.

And don't forget the ridiculous track tires also give the car the performance reflected in these magazine times, but as you know, it's not the same if the tires are cold...and these are even more track focused than your Goodyears. It's just too much, imo. And look where the gen 6 ZL1 is compared to your 1LE, or the gen 5 ZL1. I wouldn't worry about its handling...

2017 ZL1 specs: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... st-review/

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 3.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 12.4 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 18.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.9 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 1.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 2.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.5 sec @ 125 mph
Top speed (drag limited, C/D est): 195 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 143 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.04 g

It's just about identical to the 1LE for acceleration. Here is the 1LE.

C/D TEST RESULTS
Rollout, 1 ft: 0.3 sec
60 mph: 3.4 sec
100 mph: 7.4 sec
150 mph: 19.2 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.8 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.1 sec
¼-mile: 11.5 sec @ 124 mph
Top speed (mfr's claim): 190 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 137 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 268 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.17 g

[kevm14]

Besides, the ZL1 has been around since MY2017, so you can score amazing deals like this:
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sal ... pe=listing

2017 ZL1, 27,713 miles, 6-speed manual. $44,800.

Not $94k, not $75k, or even $55k. $45k. That's basically MSRP for a brand new gen 6 SS (of course those often sell for much less anyway).

You want an auto? Sure. Same price.
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sal ... pe=listing

2018 ZL1, certified, 28,270 miles, 10 speed. $44,986.