The Horsepower Wars Continue!!!

[kevm14]

It's really not possible to infer structural damage from pics, unless it's REALLY bad. But looks can be deceiving. In fact, it can go both ways: looks bad but very repairable, or looks not that bad, but serious suspension/frame geometry issues.

[Bob]

In this case, the pictures gave him a good idea of where to look for issues and he found some that ultimately made him pass on the car.

[kevm14]

Yeah that makes sense.

[kevm14]

This guy is suspicious.

I think that Dodge marketing the "hero" times was dumb. Everyone knows a private owner is gonna take the car to the track and run faster through icing the blower, dropping tire pressure, and highly favorable DA conditions ETC but to market these hero times as "NHRA certified" as if this is what the car runs is misleading. The engineer who ran those times admitted to C&D that it took "hundreds of passes" to hit that number. We see that in the mag test results with C&D running 11.7. When was the last time anyone went to test 'n tune night and got more than 7 or 8 passes in?

There's also a photo floating around of one of these pre-production Hellcats on a flatbed with a broken trans when Dodge was trying to set that time. Dodge has been up to some shenanigans with this car, both the marketing and pre-production test "mules" that were provided to the mags. They've bent themselves over backwards trying to prove they've built the quickest and fastest musclecar of all time. in reality the Hellcat is a one-trick car that is too heavy and handles poorly. It's so heavy that even with 707 horsepower it struggles to run faster than the GT500 in the mags. So its one claim to fame is straight line acceleration and it struggles to beat the car it was supposed to easily outmatch, the same car that Dodge benchmarked.

Frankly, so am I. Suspicious that Mopar can just jump in with a 707hp reliable powertrain, in a $60k car, when the nearest thing GM has done is the LS9 which goes into a $100k car. Suspicious when the Viper has been either a no-show or a has-been compared to whatever top dog Corvette there was at the time. Not saying it's impossible but they seem resource constrained. Maybe that's changed under Fiat? Anyway, I doubt it has the same pedigree as something would from GM, who has been evolving their way to the LS9 since 1997. And frankly the LS1 was so good because of lessons learned since 1955. The high horsepower Ford stuff (GT500) has flaws, too.

EDIT: That didn't take long. From the MT dyno article:

Not only is the Hellcat among the fastest things to ever get strapped to a K&N dyno, but one of the hottest -- it took five fans pointed at the Hellcat in order to keep it cool for its fifth-gear dyno pull.

Thermal management. GM sweats this on all their high performance stuff. For a reason. Look back in the past 10 years and it's usually GM stuff that doesn't have oil temp, coolant temp, trans temp or brake temp issues lapping a track repeatedly.

[kevm14]

I called this one.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/cou ... t_hellcat/

The Challenger has 9 mph of trap speed advantage to the ZL1, which is a lot. But the ZL1 has SAE-certified HP. Hilariously, the Hellcat is actually underrated.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/1408_dyno_m ... llers.html

It puts out 635 hp to the wheels. Which is cool. The LSA put down 472 rwhp for comparison. Big difference. But we know about this. Let's get to the part I called (and so did Bob).

The figure eight did much to reveal the different intended functions of the Camaro and the Challenger. The Camaro is well-balanced; you can tell its engineers were just as interested in making a track-capable car as they were a street-racer. The ZL1 is well-suited for handling work, with quick, accurate steering that weights up nicely, and a well-controlled ride, thanks to GM's trick magnetic shocks. The ZL1 lapped the figure eight in 24.0 seconds at a 0.85 g average, and pulled 0.99 g average on the skidpad. Lapping the Camaro quickly is an exercise in point and shoot, as the Chevy for the most part just sticks and goes without the driver having to do much work at all.

While the Camaro behaves like a sports car, the Challenger pretends to be nothing else than a straight-line dragster, and when you toss a corner its way it can be a handful. As associate editor Scott Evans put it, the Hellcat handles "just like a Challenger. Understeer into the corner, oversteer out." The quickest way around the figure eight ultimately was the old tried and true racing mantra of "slow in, fast out" as you lap the boat-like car. The result is still pretty impressive, even if it doesn't feel it, with a 24.7-second figure-eight time with a 0.85 average g, and a 0.94 lateral g average skidpad performance. The Hellcat may not inspire confidence in the corners, but it'll do the most glorious drifts you can possibly imagine as it shreds through its rear tires.

The Z28 is much better than the ZL1, too.

You can see where this "pedigree" shit I keep talking about is surfacing, though admittedly not for the engine.

After lapping the Hellcat as well as a Camaro 1LE that happened to be at the track, he pointed to the Camaro and said it felt like it was designed by McLaren or Red Bull's Formula 1 teams. The Hellcat, on the other hand, "feels like it was developed by [Hot Rod's] Freiburger and Finnegan."

Let's just digest that and remind ourselves this is a several-years-old Camaro they're talking about. GM has seriously upped their game in the last 10 years, which I tell anyone who will listen (which is no one).

The Camaro is the more relaxed of the two. Its V-8 quietly hums in the background, it rides beautifully, and it really makes a great grand touring car. The Challenger also excels on the freeway. Its ride is a bit busier, but its lounge seats make up the difference

In the end, the fluorescent green Challenger had more street presence, a much better interior and modern infotainment (which suddenly is important in a muscle car). And I'm glad it exists. But the Charger Hellcat is the interesting choice, not the Challenger. If I wanted something with 2 doors, it would be C6 Z06 for half the money.