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Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:30 am
by kevm14
No, the intangibles. The BMW engine probably has more engaging characteristics, in terms of power delivery or something else. Though if the production ATS-V really traps 122, then I say who cares. That's damn fast. Significantly faster than the CTS-V2 with 556hp.
As tested prices:
ATS-V: $73,655
M3: $84,325
C63 S: $91,585
The only way to really compare is equip them similarly and see what the pricing is. I don't feel like attempting to do that. On the other hand, I think it is entirely realistic that average transaction prices of the ATS-V would be $10k less than the M3.
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:50 pm
by kevm14
More opinions.
http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan ... 0216382330
The auto launches way harder and even has 2mph better trap speed. Impressive.
With the turbo, it really sounds like the auto is the way to go.
For reference, the ATS-V Sedan essentially matches our long-term 2015 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 in all performance metrics, and it does so with an extra 400 pounds in tow
Now that is a 4 door Corvette. And 100 lbs lighter than the CTS-V1.
Outside the test track and out in the real world, the ATS-V in either form is a remarkable car. Its German rivals often feel like they were built as luxury cars first and sports cars second, but the ATS-V is the opposite. It's a sports car that just so happens to have a supple ride, leather interior, and a comfortable-for-its-size back seat. Already small, the ATS-V does what good sports cars do best and shrinks around the driver once it starts being pushed. The ATS-V is telepathic, becoming one with your body as it gets flung from corner to corner. The small-diameter steering wheel offers up the perfect amount of heft and feedback, and the magnetic shocks do their job and keep the V cornering flat.
Bill, you have a problem with this?
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:59 pm
by kevm14
If there's anything to take issue with, it's the ATS-V's engine. It's not that the twin-turbo V-6 mill is a bad engine — it's actually anything but. It's just that it's lacking in personality. It's too quiet. Cadillac V-cars are supposed to be loud and in-your-face — the Guns N' Roses to BMW and Mercedes' Scorpions — and this one just isn't.
And there it is. It needs a real V8.
But I WILL say that if these comments are because BMWs artificial sounds are better than Cadillac's then we can just move right to EVs now.
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:55 am
by bill25
No wonder why I like them:
Cadillac V-cars are supposed to be loud and in-your-face — the Guns N' Roses to BMW and Mercedes' Scorpions
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:44 am
by kevm14
I remember your comment from yesterday when I wound out my CTS-V on rt 4: "geez, it even sounds good over the phone."
Can't get that with the ATS-V.
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:17 pm
by kevm14
M/T comparison with the M3 and C63.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sed ... 0216382330
12.1 seconds at 116.2
That 122 was just a fluke. They aren't that fast. Still, this is C5 Z06 fast (02-04).
Surprisingly, the ATS-V managed the best launch but had the slowest trap speed.
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:23 pm
by kevm14
The overall performance is very high.
The ATS-V also stops in a hurry. With nothing but steel rotors, the ATS-V goes from 60 mph to zero in just 99 feet. That's equal to a Ferrari 458 Italia, though the Corvette Stingray does it in 95 feet. As for the two Germans? The AMG with its $5,450 carbon-ceramic front brakes (rears are steel) requires 101 feet from 60 mph, and the M3 with its $8,150 full carbon-ceramic brake package needs 104 feet. As you can see, in a straight line, America wins. But when you start turning the wheel … USA still comes out on top. The Cadillac dusted the competition, running around our figure-eight course in 23.7 seconds, whereas the two Germans both required 24.1 seconds. To illustrate just how phenomenally all three cars handle, that Corvette Stingray needs 23.5 seconds to lap the figure eight, while a Porsche 911 Carrera 4S requires 23.9. Ferrari 458 Italia? 23.6 seconds, all of which should give you a clear illustration of how ludicrous the Caddy's handling prowess is. The conclusion from our test team is that if performance is all you care about, buy the Cadillac.
I'll say it again: aside from the lack of engine soul, the ATS-V is basically a 4 door Stingray. Of course, that comment makes me wonder if my CTS-V performed like a base Corvette. Hmm.
Scott Evans was behind me in the ATS-V. I simply could not shake him. Straight line or corners, the Caddy had no issue whatsoever sitting on the M3's back bumper. As Evans said about the ATS-V, it's a "great, great car, so quick, so smooth, so easy to drive fast." He's not alone in his assessment. "To me, the ATS-V felt the most like a sports car of the three," Christian Seabaugh said. "For better or worse, it seems that Cadillac engineered the ATS-V to be sport sedan first and a luxury car second."
I think this is the right compromise for the high-po version of the entry level Cadillac.
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:29 pm
by kevm14
There's one final hunk of data I'd like to toss at you. We happily let Pobst run all three cars around Willow Springs International Raceway's 2.42-mile circuit (the big track, aka Big Willow), and here are the results, in descending order: BMW M3 1:32.51, C63 1:31.52, Caddy ATS-V 1:31.43. The ATS-V and the C63 are both a second quicker than the M3, and the Cadillac beats the Mercedes by nine hundredths of a second. Also note that whatever advantage the Cadillac had over the C63 in our normal testing was nearly neutralized on the track. Likewise, where the BMW and Mercedes were virtually tied at the drag-strip, on the racetrack the C63 is measurably better. Pobst liked the BMW the least (snappy at the limit) and felt like he was 5 seconds per lap faster in the Mercedes than in the ATS-V. He was shocked to learn he was quicker in the Caddy. But we're talking less than a tenth.
Probably because the ATS-V doesn't sound like anything. /turbohate
Then again, I guess the fault isn't turbos, as the twin turbo V8 in the AMG was said to sound amazing.
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:29 pm
by kevm14
Spoiler:
The end of the story is that all four of us ranked the BMW in last place
Re: M/T Ignition: Cadillac ATS-V
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:30 pm
by kevm14
First comment:
Went back and looked at the stats and I am just dumbfounded at the Bimmer’s defeat. Consider:
•
Lightest by far (matches Caddy’s lb’s/hp and beats the Merc)
•
Best weight distribution
•
Biggest breaks in the group (carbon ceramic to boot)
•
Only twin clutch in the group
Yet it proves to be lesser than the sum of its parts and takes a back seat to a sublimely handling Caddy and a thoroughly beautiful but overweight Merc? What is going on? Did GM hire all BMW’s good chassis engineers?
So the AMG sounds pretty awesome. Reality check: it was $15k more as tested than the ATS-V. Not sure how much this matters in this segment, but it answers any flaw of the ATS-V that could be attributed to budget. And with GM, that's usually all the flaws.