General STS thread

[kevm14]

It went on for a while. But that really wasn't the car's fault. Plenty of cars have load leveling in the rear with an air compressor. That isn't some kind of fancy technology. My Roadmaster was built with it, for example. My 95 Fleetwood had it. My dad's 91 Olds Custom Cruiser had it. The problems I had were due to the replacement part itself.

I dug into it a lot deeper than a normal person would have. I would say this is my main hobby. So I do so willingly.

Keep in mind a gen 5 or gen 6 Camaro with MR shocks is hardly simpler than my STS. So your choices really are:
1) Pay a lot for a newer car with a warranty (currency is dollars)
2) Pay less and work on it yourself (currency is time)
3) Drive a very simple and quite possibly very boring car, or at least lacking in one or more areas like performance, features, comfort or whatever (currency is your soul)

I choose #2 because I get a 2-for-1 out of it being a hobby.

[bill25]

That is fine, it's just that time isn't negligible and is an interesting figure. It isn't against the drive an older cheaper car and fix it concept, it is the luxury car aspect I am interested in. How much extra money and work is it actually to own an older luxury car.

[kevm14]

Yeah agreed. The problem is, how much time is "hobby time" and how much is "working on car because I have to" time? With Jamie's car, there's no screwing around time. It's all business (not because I don't like the car - it's just her car, and she needs to use it) and those figures add up cleanly. With the STS, it's in the same category as my Caprice even though I said I wasn't going to be an enthusiast with it (that was a bunch of lies).

So I don't think it would be useful to anyone to just linearly add up my hours spent but do it per job. And actually, with the air compressor, there are TWO reasons I wouldn't just add those hours up: 1) because of the point I just made about hobby time and willing tinkering and 2) because I just got crappy replacement parts which I would NOT plan in or account for in a list of hours required to maintain a luxury car.

I will keep working on my spreadsheet and put a useful column of time in there.

[kevm14]

Ok here's what I have so far.

Here's an ugly copy and paste of the table just so you can look at it easily:

Code: Select all

Item	"L = Luxury
U = Used car
S = STS"	Cost	Hours	Frequency
2 wiper blades	U	$47 	0.15	1
Cabin air	U	$26 	0.15	1
Engine air	U	$23.10 	0.15	3
Fuel filter	U	$16 	1	5
Trans filter	U	$43 	0.15	5
8 plugs	U	$41 	1.25	10
4 TPMS	U	$258 	0.2	8
6 qts Dex VI	U	$35 	1.25	10
6 qts Dex VI	U	$35 	1	
Coolant change	U	$30 	2	10
Oil change	U	$70 	0.5	1
fog light aim	U	$0 	0.1	0
Belts	U	$73 	0.5	10
Battery	U	$147 	0.15	5
Air compressor	L	$0 	1	10
Sunroof drains	U	$0 	0.15	2
Door drain	S	$0 	0.05	2
TB clean	U	$0 	0.15	2
Lube brake pins and flush	U	$0 	1	2
RF ride sensor	L	$132 	0.15	10
anti-roll bar bushings	U	$160 	2.5	10
Ashtray	L	$0 	0.15	0
Adjust pass rear door latch	S	$0 	0.15	0
Tighten intake bolts	S	$0 	0.15	1
Tighten sunroof bolts	U	$0 	0.75	0
Secure brake booster vacuum hose	S	$0 	0.2	0
Clean MAF	U	$0 	0.15	2
P/S fluid change	U	$0 	0.25	2
				
TOTAL U		$1,004.08 	13.5	
TOTAL L		$132.14 	1.3	
TOTAL S		$0.00 	0.55	
Grand TOTAL		$1,136.22 	15.35	

Here are the results:
Total item cost for those that I classified as used car expenses: $1,004.08
Total item cost for those that I classified as luxury car expenses: $132.14
Total item cost for those that I classified as STS specific: $0

Total time spent actually doing the job for used car items: 13.5 hours
Total time spent actually doing the job for luxury car items: 1.3 hours
Total time spent actually doing the job for STS specific items: 0.55 hours

As you can see I struggled to lump anything into the luxury car category other than the ride height sensor and, fine, the air compressor, and the ashtray fix that I did for free. You can scroll above and see what I did. I mostly stand by my ratings. For example, in 2017, or frankly in 2005, I don't think a sunroof is exclusive to luxury cars.

For STS items I put: door drain, pass rear door latch, intake bolts, brake booster hose.

Interesting that my $500 turned into $1000 by the time I went through all my threads and this thread for little things I did. The short answer is, I didn't account for: the battery, the mounting and balancing cost for installing the TPMS sensors, oil change, the anti-roll bar bushing cost and belts. That delta right there adds up to, conveniently, $530. But again, not only are these expenses I'd tag on most used cars past very new, but I'd tag them as expenses you'd have to do on your OWN car, past a certain age. So this stuff really kind of washes out.

One expense that I have NOT had to do so far is a big brake job (not uncommon for a used car) or tires (also not uncommon).

I added a Frequency column which is how many years between these maintenance or repair items.

Here's a summary:
- One time items: Fog light aim, ashtray fix, door latch adjustment, sunroof bolts, brake hose clamp. $0, 1.35 hours.
- Annual items: Wiper blades, cabin air, oil change, intake bolt tightening. $143, 0.95 hours.
- 2 year items: Sunroof drains, door drains, TB clean, brake pin lube and flush, clean MAF, change power steering fluid. $0, 1.75 hours.
- 3 year items: Engine air filter. $23.10, 0.15 hours.
- 5 year items: Fuel filter, trans filter, battery. $206, 1.3 hours.
- 8 year items: TPMS sensors. $258, 0.2 hours.
- 10 year items: plugs, trans fluid and filter, coolant, belts, air compressor, ride height sensor, anti-roll bar bushings. $471, 8.65 hours.

So I haven't done this yet but I could extrapolate a 10 year ownership projection based on these estimates. I do not have much for repair data as this is mostly maintenance/TLC type stuff. Maybe I will do that, and graph it.

[bill25]

And actually, with the air compressor, there are TWO reasons I wouldn't just add those hours up: 1) because of the point I just made about hobby time and willing tinkering and 2) because I just got crappy replacement parts which I would NOT plan in or account for in a list of hours required to maintain a luxury car.

I would say the hours for that should include initial time to determine problem, time to remove original bad part, and time to install the new good one. The complexity of diagnosing is not negligible, I will definitely agree that the time replacing broken new parts does not count. That can happen with anything. If I remember correctly, it took a while to understand the problem, and some of that is luxury complexity. I disagree that leveling air suspension is not luxury. If you want to also make MR suspension in the luxury category, I am ok with that.

[kevm14]

Funny story.

I have previously mentioned that ALL STSs got some kind of load leveling, when they had the HID headlights. If it was an FE1 car, it got the Nivomat shocks like my SRX and CTS-V. If it has MR suspension (FE3/F55), then it gets the air compressor. Only halogen headlight base cars do not get any kind of load leveling.

After doing just a little digging, it would appear that there is a US DOT type law that says cars with HID lights need some kind of leveling function to avoid dazzling oncoming traffic. Most European and Japanese cars appear to use electronic height adjusters and a tilt sensor. In the STS, GM decided to kill two birds with one stone and not just level the headlights but the entire back of the car due to load. By bringing the back of the car to level, the headlights are now correct and no electronic adjusters are needed.

Where am I going with this?

Well first of all, a 2004 Prius had HID headlights with the automatic leveling adjusters. And naturally the thread I found was how to fix them. So...I ask. When did HID headlights become mainstream vs a luxury feature? We also have to define luxury but what I'll say is only high end cars in the late 90s had HIDs. By the mid 2000s, it was quite available (like in the Prius). It doesn't have to be standard on everything to be mainstream, so I'll use this to say the leveling is not a luxury feature, because rear load leveling is actually older (by decades) and arguably more mature than in-headlight electronic height adjusters (with a sensor somewhere). And we've now switched to LED headlights as the new tech, and now a 2018 Accord has them.

Don't confuse this system with a Mercedes or Range Rover air spring system, or Mercedes hydraulic suspension. Totally different.

[Adam]

Snooze. Call me when you have power adjusting rear seats.

[kevm14]

The E38 7-series has that...

[kevm14]

I would say the hours for that should include initial time to determine problem, time to remove original bad part, and time to install the new good one. The complexity of diagnosing is not negligible, I will definitely agree that the time replacing broken new parts does not count. That can happen with anything. If I remember correctly, it took a while to understand the problem, and some of that is luxury complexity. I disagree that leveling air suspension is not luxury. If you want to also make MR suspension in the luxury category, I am ok with that.

Yeah I put in 1 hour and that probably isn't enough for the whole process. I did inspect the original compressor to identify what the actual issue was. I guess if I put 2 hours that would be reasonable to cover diagnostic, removal and reinstallation of the new part.

MR is definitely "premium" though perhaps it has fallen out of the "luxury" category in that you don't need to pay luxury car prices for a car with MR (i.e. new Camaro).

That was kind of my point with the HID headlights. When you could get them in a Prius (which I assume was $30k or less in 2004), it's not really a luxury exclusive anymore.

[Bob]

Also, all S2000s came with HIDs. It was a bit pricier than the Prius, but not exactly a luxury car.