Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
They leave a lot of stuff out that you would need to actually drive this $800 rust bucket. I think these videos/shows on swaps are very deceiving. I don't see gauges, brakes or suspension on the list. That can add up pretty quickly. For 800 you are not getting a very nice donor car to begin with. Not in reality. This in my mind equates to much more than 5K for this build if you were to actually drive it safely and with any confidence.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
See I'd rather drive the Sloppy Colorado than this 79 Camaro. When you are looking at beater-class vehicle to begin the swap, I don't think you need to be picky about body styles.
The fact is, you can get the car to like 80% fairly inexpensively if you know what you are doing. The last 20% will cost you.
The fact is, you can get the car to like 80% fairly inexpensively if you know what you are doing. The last 20% will cost you.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
I'm pretty sure they didn't touch the brakes or suspension. Because Roadkill? No, that's not it.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
Ok, started with $4942. Let's pull out the things that involve the particular donor car, or aren't LS-specific:
-$800 for the car itself (supply your own car)
-$1180 for complete engine (supply your own engine)
-$200 for the windshield
-$750 for the trans (you'll have to deal with the trans on anything you touch)
-$116 for engine mounts (you would replace them on anything you install, after 30 years)
-$166 trans adapter (you wouldn't need this with a trans that already has the right bolt pattern)
-$20 window weld (DIY stiffer engine mounts - you don't need to do this)
-$17 misc hardware (applies to anything)
-$75 for electric fan (you'd probably want to do this but whatever you do, you can do to either swap so this is negated)
-$140 fuel tank repair (donor car stuff)
-$100 torque converter (this was garbage but you'd need this anyway - could possibly get away with a truck T/C)
-$8 fuel filter
-$3 hose clamps
-$6 hose caps
-$138 battery
-$105 radiator (will need to do this on either, but, if you thought you could reuse the stock one on an SBC, you could do it on an LS swap so this is also negated)
-$12 trans fittings
-$32 trans cooler
-$16 dipstick
-$65 ATF
-$8 PS fluid
-$458 driveshaft (if you convert to a 700R4 you will need this and the chances of getting a Monte Carlo SS donor car with a built 2004R are remote enough to say this applies to any swap)
Total subtraction:
$4,415
So that leaves $527 extra stuff for the LS. There may be a few things missing yet, like the oil pan. And I subtracted $116 for engine mounts but SBC mounts are far less so add another $100 back for those. There is wiggle room in my argument here, which you will see as you continue reading.
LS swap total cost: ~$527 + complete engine ($800) + $200 for oil pan = $1,527 + trans + driveshaft + exhaust + rear axle + brakes + whatever + the car
350 swap total cost: 3 grand for the eBay 350 + trans + driveshaft + exhaust + rear axle + brakes + whatever + the car
The important part is $527 + $800 for donor engine + $200 oil pan = $1,527
And that compares directly with the 3 grand 350.
What I'm telling you is that an $800 pull from some truck/SUV/van is actually a better engine in every way than a brand new 350. That's how much better the LS is. It'll last longer, get better fuel economy, drive better, leak less, and have overall far more potential for upgrades. And an $800 pull is MOST CERTAINLY better than a 350 you put together yourself for $800.
To be fair you will need a small cam upgrade + valve springs to match the eBay 350. Plus tuning, but dyno tuning either setup (carb or EFI) is recommended. Or tune it yourself. But you can do all of that within the ~$1500 advantage the LS swap started with (when comparing to the 3 grand ebay 350).
On the LS swap, you'd think you can pull out a few more bucks if you went carbureted but actually, no. Why? Because you have to buy the carb and intake and MSD spark box (about $1000). That alone is more than piddly shit like the $100 fuel pump, rail fittings, fuel lines and so on.
You could probably swap a ~250hp 350 in and do nothing else. But at the 400hp level (400 real HP, not engine dyno HP), you will not get away with it.
I still don't think this is the best example of a swap and there are cars that you can start with that will make the job easier, or cheaper. 5 grand with car isn't bad. But Sloppy Mechanics built a Colorado that can probably click off low 10s or a high 9 for less than $10k. Guess which one I think is the better value.
10-15 years ago, LS swapping was very pricey. Now, I would make the case that it is either cheaper (apples to apples) or if not cheaper, a better value (you pay X more but you get X + Y more). I reject the sentiment that LS swapping a Monte Carlo SS is "too expensive" but putting in a 350 that makes the performance you want is "quite affordable." And I think this post proves that.
-$800 for the car itself (supply your own car)
-$1180 for complete engine (supply your own engine)
-$200 for the windshield
-$750 for the trans (you'll have to deal with the trans on anything you touch)
-$116 for engine mounts (you would replace them on anything you install, after 30 years)
-$166 trans adapter (you wouldn't need this with a trans that already has the right bolt pattern)
-$20 window weld (DIY stiffer engine mounts - you don't need to do this)
-$17 misc hardware (applies to anything)
-$75 for electric fan (you'd probably want to do this but whatever you do, you can do to either swap so this is negated)
-$140 fuel tank repair (donor car stuff)
-$100 torque converter (this was garbage but you'd need this anyway - could possibly get away with a truck T/C)
-$8 fuel filter
-$3 hose clamps
-$6 hose caps
-$138 battery
-$105 radiator (will need to do this on either, but, if you thought you could reuse the stock one on an SBC, you could do it on an LS swap so this is also negated)
-$12 trans fittings
-$32 trans cooler
-$16 dipstick
-$65 ATF
-$8 PS fluid
-$458 driveshaft (if you convert to a 700R4 you will need this and the chances of getting a Monte Carlo SS donor car with a built 2004R are remote enough to say this applies to any swap)
Total subtraction:
$4,415
So that leaves $527 extra stuff for the LS. There may be a few things missing yet, like the oil pan. And I subtracted $116 for engine mounts but SBC mounts are far less so add another $100 back for those. There is wiggle room in my argument here, which you will see as you continue reading.
LS swap total cost: ~$527 + complete engine ($800) + $200 for oil pan = $1,527 + trans + driveshaft + exhaust + rear axle + brakes + whatever + the car
350 swap total cost: 3 grand for the eBay 350 + trans + driveshaft + exhaust + rear axle + brakes + whatever + the car
The important part is $527 + $800 for donor engine + $200 oil pan = $1,527
And that compares directly with the 3 grand 350.
What I'm telling you is that an $800 pull from some truck/SUV/van is actually a better engine in every way than a brand new 350. That's how much better the LS is. It'll last longer, get better fuel economy, drive better, leak less, and have overall far more potential for upgrades. And an $800 pull is MOST CERTAINLY better than a 350 you put together yourself for $800.
To be fair you will need a small cam upgrade + valve springs to match the eBay 350. Plus tuning, but dyno tuning either setup (carb or EFI) is recommended. Or tune it yourself. But you can do all of that within the ~$1500 advantage the LS swap started with (when comparing to the 3 grand ebay 350).
On the LS swap, you'd think you can pull out a few more bucks if you went carbureted but actually, no. Why? Because you have to buy the carb and intake and MSD spark box (about $1000). That alone is more than piddly shit like the $100 fuel pump, rail fittings, fuel lines and so on.
You could probably swap a ~250hp 350 in and do nothing else. But at the 400hp level (400 real HP, not engine dyno HP), you will not get away with it.
I still don't think this is the best example of a swap and there are cars that you can start with that will make the job easier, or cheaper. 5 grand with car isn't bad. But Sloppy Mechanics built a Colorado that can probably click off low 10s or a high 9 for less than $10k. Guess which one I think is the better value.
10-15 years ago, LS swapping was very pricey. Now, I would make the case that it is either cheaper (apples to apples) or if not cheaper, a better value (you pay X more but you get X + Y more). I reject the sentiment that LS swapping a Monte Carlo SS is "too expensive" but putting in a 350 that makes the performance you want is "quite affordable." And I think this post proves that.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
To be fair you will need a small cam upgrade + valve springs to match the eBay 350. Plus tuning, but dyno tuning either setup (carb or EFI) is recommended. Or tune it yourself. But you can do all of that within the ~$1500 advantage the LS swap started with (when comparing to the 3 grand ebay 350).
A 300 HP LS is not apples to apples with a 415 HP SBC. The add-ons count. So this is EFI or Carb on the LS, because there needs to be money accounted for that. What about gauges for the LS swap?
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
So a "415 hp" eBay 350 is not 415 SAE net HP, in the same way that a truck-based LS donor is 285-300. So the gap is smaller than you think. And that gap can be closed by the $400 for cam and valve springs that I included.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
You would need the adaptor mounts when putting the LS in any gen1/2 SBC platform. The ~$100 mounts were the adapters, the $20 mounts were the rubber pieces that you would replace on anything after 30 years.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
I should read the whole post before replying...Adam wrote:You would need the adaptor mounts when putting the LS in any gen1/2 SBC platform. The ~$100 mounts were the adapters, the $20 mounts were the rubber pieces that you would replace on anything after 30 years.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
Good thing you didn't read it closer to when I posted it, because I must have edited it like 20 times to add/change stuff.
Re: Hot Rod Garage: Low Buck LS-Swapped '79 Camaro
$527 + $800 for the complete engine + $200 for oil pan (please correct price if wrong) + $100 for conversion mounts + $100 for an EFI fuel tank = $1,727. They already had fuel lines in the build so don't add them again.kevm14 wrote:So that leaves $527 extra stuff for the LS. There may be a few things missing yet, like the oil pan. And I subtracted $116 for engine mounts but SBC mounts are far less so add another $100 back for those. There is wiggle room in my argument here, which you will see as you continue reading.
LS swap total cost: ~$527 + complete engine ($800) + $200 for oil pan = $1,527 + trans + driveshaft + exhaust + rear axle + brakes + whatever + the car
350 swap total cost: 3 grand for the eBay 350 + trans + driveshaft + exhaust + rear axle + brakes + whatever + the car
The important part is $527 + $800 for donor engine + $200 oil pan = $1,527
And that compares directly with the 3 grand 350.
What I'm telling you is that an $800 pull from some truck/SUV/van is actually a better engine in every way than a brand new 350. That's how much better the LS is. It'll last longer, get better fuel economy, drive better, leak less, and have overall far more potential for upgrades. And an $800 pull is MOST CERTAINLY better than a 350 you put together yourself for $800.
To be fair you will need a small cam upgrade + valve springs to match the eBay 350. Plus tuning, but dyno tuning either setup (carb or EFI) is recommended. Or tune it yourself. But you can do all of that within the ~$1500 advantage the LS swap started with (when comparing to the 3 grand ebay 350).
Plenty more wiggle room for things like a tune and figuring out the gauges (VSS adapter or even add the $800 Dakota Digital speedo driver box) before you even come close to that crate "built" 350. This was my gut feeling from the beginning.
The cost isn't in the LS part. In fact the LS appears to be the cheaper/obvious solution (confirming what is happening on the entire internet in terms of swaps). The majority of the cost is in the supporting mods that make a car go, stop and turn, and make power reliably (think entire driveline).
Let me put it another way: you want to build a 12, 11 or 10 second, highly streetable Monte Carlo SS? There isn't a CHEAPER way to do it than an LS-based build. It's a little bit of a strawman to claim "LS swapping isn't cheap." Because it's not like there are cheaper options once you get into 400+ HP territory. Ok, BELOW 300 HP? Yeah you can save a lot, but again, that savings is multiplied not just by the engine, but all of the supporting stuff that you WON'T need with a dinky setup.
If the budget is tight, you can learn some fabrication skills, like cutting down an Explorer 8.8 axle (if that's even the best value).
Would be nice to factor out the donor vehicles that Sloppy Mechanics uses so you can just take numbers from his builds, and add the cost of the right donor Monte Carlo to the project.