Repair-It

bill25 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:27 pm Found these stats:
2008 Infiniti G37S, 3:17.5
2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8, 3:16.3
2007 Mazdaspeed 3, 3:16.0
2010 Ford Mustang GT, 3:13.3
2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS, 3:13.0 -faster than a 2010 GT, slower than a 2011 V6...

Yeah and more importantly, look at what is above the Cobalt SS. It boggles the mind.

2011 Ford Mustang V-6, 3:12.5 - This is only 3 seconds off from a Camaro SS?!

Yes, because the original FE3 SS was bad. Well, not "bad" in a strong sense, but it was shipped as a more relaxed cruiser, with a decent ride, and lots of understeer, and little finesse. Fortunately they refined it into all kinds of decent stuff.

2007 Ford Shelby GT500, 3:11.0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------What is
2007 BMW 335i coupe, 3:10.5 - Could be in price range
2012 Dodge Charger SRT8, 3:10.1
2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 3:09.5
2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392, 3:09.4
2011 Ford Mustang GT, 3:08.6
2011 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, 3:06.9 - Could be in price range
2007 Ford Shelby GT500, 3:05.9 --------------------------------------------------------------------------going on here???

Best I can figure is it broke.

There were no such discussions concerning the Ford Shelby GT500, which returned because bad ignition parts soured its visit to last year’s Lightning Lap. It’s a strange car—it moves around obsessively when driven hard, with so much body roll and pitch that it’s hard to believe it was designed to perform in such a manner. It is, however, a safe car to drive fast because it is exceptionally predictable, is seemingly impossible to spin, and has brakes that hold up well. As long as the ambient temperature was below 70 degrees, the GT500 was fairly quick and posted a 3:05.9 lap. But when the temperature climbed to about 90 degrees, the engine started lying down, and the lap time lengthened by four seconds. None of the other cars was so affected by the heat.

Buyers are apparently still paying 10 grand over sticker for GT500s, a phenomenon that continues to mystify us.

I doubt the E63 AMG is in your price range. Same with the C63. But maybe like a mid 2000s E55.

You should probably look at prices for the older Challenger SRT8. It will most likely mirror the GTO. No manual, ponderous handling, FCA, but I assume you like the body style.

I just checked. Neither the Challenger nor Charger SRT8 appear to be in your price range, unless they have over 150k. And even then just barely.

bill25 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:05 pm There is 1 CTS-V in 500 miles and it is $10,000 w/142000 miles on it.
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sal ... pe=listing
Compared to:
2008 BMW 3 Series 335i Sedan 4D - $7999 - 78,000 miles
https://boston.craigslist.org/sob/ctd/d ... 28805.html

In this case there is a reason the newer, "nicer," lower mileage car with about the same performance is cheaper. If you can find a way to buy an infinite warranty then you could make the case...

Mostly though, at least the American stuff that is in this performance range, is all clustered right at $10k as bottom of market. I'm talking LS2 GTO, V1, and the SRT8 cars.

V1 Article:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... road-test/


0-to-60 time—5.2 seconds
1/4 mile - 13.7secs @ 107mph
skidpad number, 0.90 g.

Possibly the best quote:

Raise your glass to never having to pretend the Catera is a legitimate sports sedan ever again!

In previous posts:
5.7 GTO:
0 to 60 - 5.3 seconds
quarter-mile 14.0 at 102 mph

6.0 GTO:
0 to 60 - 4.7 seconds
quarter mile 13.3 seconds at 105.9 mph

I'm shocked you haven't found this article yet. I forgot about it.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/cadilla ... omparison/

Trio Grande: Brawny, big-bore, take-no-prisoners Detroit muscle is back. How does 1225 horsepower sliced three ways grab you?

CTS-V vs 300C SRT8 vs GTO. All 2005s.

Now--heh-heh--Detroit muscle is back. Big-time. How much horsepressure would you deem sufficient to embolden a rakishly attired, thoroughly modern automobile capable of ferrying four adults in leather-lined splendor? Would 375 horses do? No, let's be greedy--how about 400? Minimum.

Feast your eyes on these three Patriot missiles. Each flaunts a proper rear-drive layout and a big, lusty, Detroit-bred pushrod V-8 producing 400 horsepower--or more. The slowest of the trio rips to 60 mph in five seconds flat (and remember: These bad-boys have back seats). Brakes are vented and large at all 12 corners; tires are of the big and sticky variety. The pimply kid in the ratty Trans Am is doomed.

Before we headed into the mountains with the CTS-v, test driver Walton came back from the track grinning like he'd just been given free access to the Playboy Channel. "Whoever designed that chassis really knows what the hell they're doing." It took us about, oh, one fast sweeper to agree. The Caddy's turn-in is scalpel-sharp, the front end bites hard, and, just as the car is beginning to push, a squeeze on the throttle brings the rear end out ever so gently and the nose back in line. Few sport sedans--or sports cars, for that matter--are so beautifully balanced and neutral.

That is correct. It was one of the best things going at the time, and I think still stands up well.

2005 Cadillac CTS-V
0-60: 4.7
1/4: 13.1 @ 109.8
Skidpad: 0.90g
60-0: 111 ft
Fig-8: 25.6 @ 0.72

2005 Chrysler 300C SRT8
0-60: 4.9
1/4: 13.2 @ 108.1
Skidpad: 0.88g
60-0: 113 ft
Fig-8: 26.3 @ 0.70

2005 Pontiac GTO
0-60: 5.0
1/4: 13.3 @ 107.5
Skidpad: 0.85g
60-0: 121 ft
Fig-8: 26.1 @ 0.68

That 109.8 mph trap suggests a particularly strong running LS6 there. I don't know if that is representative but this is a pretty good test considering it tested the cars at the same time.

There are irritations in the Caddy that make us want to smack GM upside its corporate head: a tilt wheel with limited detents instead of infinite adjust, pedals too far apart and too high for easy footwork, a parking-brake pedal (in a manual-transmission car?) instead of a hand lever. But the rest of the CTS-v is so brilliant we almost don't care. Look at the stats on the accompanying spec chart. Note the CTS-v's figure-eight performance. That's less than half a second behind the $190,000 Lamborghini Gallardo's time (and we've never been able to find the Lambo's back seat).At $51,295, the 2005 Cadillac CTS-V tops this group in price, but it's still a bargain, a sexy, luxurious four-door that'll run with AMGs and M5s (and occasionally taunt a 911) for tens of thousands less. In this trio, it's also the car we'd ask out first for a date to the asphalt dance. We can't wait to see the look on Miss Two-Lane Blacktop.

So that's a win. For acceleration, these are all basically the same. In the real world, the SRT8 is probably the most consistent due to the auto, but the manual hasn't kept me from beating anyone off a light in my V...

I have to add the V6 Mustang since it is in the reasonable performance envelope, especially if I am considering the V6 Camaro.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... road-test/

V-6 Mustang with the standard six-speed manual:
0 to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds
quarter-mile in 14 flat at 104 mph

Hopefully these are out of my price range... LOL

In all seriousness though, it is an easier sell for something newer if similarly priced and performance is close. Remember, primary use is a daily.

If only the Focus RS was 10K...

I'll help, in the name of avoiding a Mustang V6...(even though I didn't realize how fast those were)

If part of the goal is to sort of help with the driving skills, I am sure the Mustang feels and drives completely different from the Camaro. The V6 Camaro manual must be closer, no?

Assuming you can find a well cared for Speed 3 I still recommend that. You get a fun daily on a platform you already know, and in the future, you can still sell it, buy a V6 Camaro or whatever, and build something fast.

Similarly, if you want something faster and RWD, I'd still look at the LS2 GTO 6-speeds (or even an 04 LS1 w/ manual - they still sound awesome - I test drove one in December of 2003) and just enjoy it as a daily for however long. Keep it to mod it, or sell it. You don't need to lock yourself into anything. I'd personally prefer the V1 but you prefer coupes.

I would say those are the top 3 options, maybe the CTS-V too. Realistically, the Camaro is the only one I'd really want to make the hotrod.


Mazdaspeed3 with lower miles would be nice since it is the upgraded version of what I have now, and would make me get better at manual.
GTO is cool as is, I could potentially get a manual, and if the miles were low enough, resale would be better than the MazdaSpeed3 down the road.
V6 Camaro could eventually be a hotrod, but at that point it might be cheaper to sell and buy an SS... Not sure about this one yet.

Have you considered a non-running E46? I hear good things...you might even get it for free.

bill25 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:33 pm Mazdaspeed3 with lower miles would be nice since it is the upgraded version of what I have now, and would make me get better at manual.
GTO is cool as is, I could potentially get a manual, and if the miles were low enough, resale would be better than the MazdaSpeed3 down the road.
V6 Camaro could eventually be a hotrod, but at that point it might be cheaper to sell and buy an SS... Not sure about this one yet.

My thoughts, restated a little, go something like this:
Speed 3: Most practical, and sort of most obvious upgrade. Best daily driver MPG. Hatch is useful even if you hate the style (I think it may grow on you and this is coming from a non-hatch person). Then again I'm easy - a Cobalt SS could grow on me because it apparently drives so damn well. Just imagine the impromptu races and the look on their faces. The MS3 looks like a hot hatch, albeit a 13 year old one.

GTO: Gives you a pre-Camaro Holden platform which is a pretty good all around car. Worst handling and brakes of all of these. Probably the best ride? You can upgrade the level of performance from the Speed 3 on a proper RWD platform. Well, the 04 is probably pretty even with a Speed 3 except it will still be better to drive if you like RWD, but the 3 will feel more dialed-in. In New England, the Speed 3 is probably the better choice over an 04 GTO but the 04 GTO is the most affordable and, imo, more interesting than the Speed 3, FWIW. 05-06 is properly quicker than the MS3. Frankly, it is also a few grand more expensive, too, but you also get more performance.

V1: I'm biased but you get LS2 GTO performance, still a better chassis and brakes, and 4 door practicality. It's not really more expensive than an LS2 GTO. If you get the 06-07 you even get the LS2. I like the LS6 and they'll be cheaper anyway. This is still a great car and probably undervalued by the market (maybe creeping up). That said....maybe I shouldn't be pushing for you to get the same daily as my "special" car. It could hurt my manhood, and then I'll have to go V2 hunting and stuff, and go race Edgardo.

V6 Camaro: I actually don't see the point if you drive this for more than a few years completely stock. It's RWD, but not a V8 and if you leave it stock, if it were me, I'd rather be driving a V8 something, even though it's probably better performing overall than an 04 GTO. The big case, aside from possibly hot-rodding it, is that it's also a platform you know (well, getting to know), and learning on the V6 Camaro manual should most directly translate to your SS. In some ways, sort of the least satisfying to drive stock. Hard to explain but you kind of don't want the low version of a car for a few reasons. Even though the V6 Camaro is reasonably quick, it looks like a Camaro so it's not like you'll catch anyone by surprise, ever. In fact, they'll only be surprised it's not faster most of the time. Cars are routinely bought and sold. Unless you were ready to start a project, I don't see the point in choosing your "I might LS swap this" car now. The V6 Camaro manual could still be the right choice for an upgraded daily but imo not because you'll swap it later.

When you add it all up I guess you could really scratch your head. Some tie breakers include:
- General availability, including anywhere near a reasonable radius to our part of the country. This is not the time of year to find all the good RWD for sale BUT what's there should be priced lower so you really don't ever stop looking. I don't see the rush anyway, so you shouldn't rule something out just because of a couple Auto Trader searches this month. Don't forget CL/Auto Tempest or maybe cars.com. You only need to find one car, not ten.

- Chances of well kept examples of all of these? I'd think you could find battered to mint on all of them. The Speed 3 MIGHT be the most likely to be ridden hard and put away wet but I'm not sure I can back that up with any hard evidence. Just seems like that kind of car?

- V1 is the easiest to shop for. All manuals. Just some colors and sunroof. Did the MS3 come in auto? If not then that should help matters. There will be GTO and Camaro autos to sift through. You particularly don't want the GTO auto. A Camaro auto is a fine driving vehicle (6L50, same as our SRX) but also completely pointless to your goals.

- Reliability? I guess a 2012-2013 Camaro would be the newest. The rest are pre-2010 with maybe the GTO and V1 being the oldest right? I don't know that I would let that drive anything. A well-kept V1 that was garaged in winters is not necessarily a worse car than a V6 Camaro that was daily driven in all the garbage we usually see, getting beat up on bad potholes, salt, etc. Powertrain wise, I'd put the GTO and V1 on equal terms (seems obvious), probably followed by the Camaro. I guess I'd rank the MS3 last but more research required. Obviously it's an early direct injected turbo 4. You should really do some reading. You WILL find horror stories on EVERY single one of these cars, I promise.