Repair-It

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:52 pm**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvVj0mVZvAE

So let me just say that I love the theme of this car.

But let me also immediately point out that I disagree with the logic for using the 383 stroker.

The argument is, everyone does LS swaps. Those will be played out in 15 years, but the 383 will always be cool, or something to that extent.

That is just so dumb. If anything is played out, it's the 383. This guy says "people will open the hood in 15 years and say, oh, only an LS1." Well the 383 has been around ever since someone figured out that you could put a 400 crank in a 350 block and with some clever clearancing, you could get 383 cubes (I think you may also need 0.030 over but I don't feel like doing the math).

But my point is, when I look at something like this where, by the way, the guy dumped a ton of money for his "builder" to put the car together for him, I think, man, only a 383? Think of all the extra performance you could have had...or barring that, drivability and fuel economy.

And I don't even mean a turbo junkyard 5.3L. I mean a real LS-based N/A build.

It's not like a 69 Camaro ever came from GM with a 383. It's not like ANYTHING ever came stock with a 383. That engine was completely invented by the aftermarket and only much later did GM even begin to sell a crate 383.

Other than that, the car seems great. But the whole vibe is like, hey, don't build the same Camaro that everyone else does. Write a check like this guy did so you can be cool with your carbureted 383.

Rubbed me the wrong way...

And another thing: can people get over this EFI hump please? It's not that hard to tune. No you can't slap a carb on it and try a couple jet sizes on a dyno but the end result is so much better. This Camaro runs well but he didn't exactly throw a carb on it, either. He had a guy who tunes triple Webers on Ferraris tune his 4 barrel. That kind of defeats the "pro-carb" argument.

To wrap up, nice car, but logic fail.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:37 pm**

You like the old school look of the carb, but put those wheels on it with that stance... interesting.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:45 pm**

kevm14 wrote:...by the way, the guy dumped a ton of money for his "builder" to put the car together for him, I think, man, only a 383?

Write a check like this guy did so you can be cool with your carbureted 383.

He had a guy who tunes triple Webers on Ferraris tune his 4 barrel.

What's wrong with paying someone to build/tune a car for you? If you have the money, but not the time or expertise, I see no harm in supporting someone who does. At least he is keeping a '69 Camaro on the road. He could be spending that money maintaining a fleet of new Corollas or bus passes or something.

If everyone built their car with an LS crate motor, that would be pretty boring.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:51 am**

It's really not a fair comment to complain that people do something different, like this guy did. But doing something different was literally the more expensive option. Costs more money to get that carb dialed in just so (especially if you are "picky", and believe there are throttle positions other than WOT and idle). Costs a ton of money to do all that custom body work.

The argument really only works when you build it with your own two hands. Unless we are supposed to be impressed with his "vision."

As I said, the general point about doing something different is well founded. But don't use this carbureted 383 Camaro which was built exclusively by professionals as the poster child of your argument.

LS-based builds aren't popular because of group-link and lemming syndrome. I truly believe this 383 build cost more and ends up with less. It's not that defensible, especially when most people can't write that check.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:15 pm**

So there are some things going on here that don't all coincide.

To say you want it to look old school so it is carbed is nice and I get that, and that is a thing. SO much to the fact that they make EFI systems that look like carbs to keep the old school look. I get and respect that. I also get and respect the idea of having it mechanically tuned vice computer controlled if that is what you are into.

All that is good with me if that is what you want. I really like 60's Camaros. I don't really feel that this looks old school thou until you open the hood. The exterior is very Foose. I personally don't like that look where the front wheels are engulfed by the fenders, but people do since Foose is still in business. I just think the exterior and interior clash if he really wants it to be or look old school.

I personally like the MPG and nerdy computer aspect of the new powertrains, and the old exteriors, so I would want the exact opposite. Also if you are talking straight power for dollar, you wouldn't start with a 60's Camaro, they are very expensive to start with. A gen 3 or 4 with this setup would be just as fast, and much cheaper. So yeah, the 383 isn't cheap, but nothing on this car including the car itself was.

Performance wise, I thnk 500s for HP and Torque is pretty respectable in a carbed 383 or an EFI LS. I think getting 500s for the LS is not as cheap as being let on. The base truck LS (the cheap one) is onle 275 to 325 ish HP stock, that is a ways off from the 500s. I know it is attainable, I just don't think it is as cheap a swap as being let on.

I am glad this guy likes his car. It might not be exactly my first choice, but I bet it is awesome.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:53 pm**

kevm14 wrote:But doing something different was literally the more expensive option.

Who cares how much this guy spent on his car? Did he spend your money? No. Does he like his car? Yes.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:53 pm**

billgiacheri wrote:I am glad this guy likes his car. It might not be exactly my first choice, but I bet it is awesome.

Yes!

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:06 am**

It was really the host's narrative that I was arguing with. It's quite obvious that the owner enjoys his car.

I stand by my point:

As I said, the general point about doing something different is well founded. But don't use this carbureted 383 Camaro which was built exclusively by professionals as the poster child of your argument.

That was the host's argument.

Now the theme of the car, the Pro Daily concept, is something that I find very desirable. I think drag-only cars are useless as are show-only cars. But again, do you really think this particular car embodies this Pro Daily concept the best? With its pricey professional build (unless that's what the "Pro" refers to, in which case I retract my statement)? It certainly does accomplish the goal (complete with its tune-by-carb-whisperer) but you don't have to spend this kind of money to have a nice car that's fast and can be daily driven.

And I have to say Bill kind of hit it a little bit with his Foose comment. For all the host's commentary about how unique and interesting the car is, is it REALLY? We've seen this before, at least on the exterior.

It's very simple. If you spend a lot of money and draw a lot of attention to the car (like the host has done), you set the bar pretty high. It's totally fair to be proportionately critical.

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:33 am**

This guy gets it:

Seems like you guys equated LS motor to forced induction. I love how you guys always do this. Oh less is more! It only has air ride, stroked 383, custom fenders, doors and quarter panels, spoiler and front nose/gril. You guys can be a little pretentious at times. For every one ls swap 1st gen you see, they're probably 20 carbed ones. And who from the internet ever would say don't build this car?

This. He articulated my entire point in only 7 sentences.

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:43 am**

A youtube comment with content? Amazing.

To play devil's advocate to you playing devil's advocate, the whole "carbs are easier to tweak" is a myth.

You say: "said enthusiast only has hand tools, not a laptop" - BS. Everybody has a laptop in this day and age, in a world where this guy probably spent 50k on this build, spending an extra 300 bucks on a cheap yet powerful laptop is comical.

You don't even need to open the toolbox to tune EFI, you just plug it in, make the changes, and re-upload, easy as pie. It's super simple to say "carbs are easy and you can adjust on the side of the road" - but that's sort of BS. If you've done as I have, spent countless hours running a bike up and down the road and killing it to properly read the plug, then the motor is too hot to touch the carbs for long, then pulling the carb off, carb apart, new jets, re-tune idle, spent 40 min stuffing them back on, then rinse repeat? That shit gets old as hell. With a laptop I spend 30 seconds - 1 minute making changes and I don't even need to turn the car off depending on the ECM company.

So I don't know, I get what you're saying, I get the reasoning behind carbs, but I really don't buy that "carbs are simple" bullshit, not when I've spent tons of time dialing in carbs to get them just right, and then suffering more when the temp drops 40.* With EFI I simply put the correction in the temp adjustment tables and I'll never have to touch it again, even when it warms back up....oh, and there's gauges to get feedback on EVERYTHING. Not just playing guesswork looking at plugs and exhausts and shit.

I think it's easy for people to feel overwhelmed with computers in a world where some people (especially older people) can barely figure out how to check their email, but the fact of the matter is that adjusting EFI is way easier, WAY more dynamic, and way more accurate.

You're def. right about being able to run slightly higher comp on carb though, but I wouldn't bank a build on it.

Bam. Nailed it.

Now if I may add a little bit to the discussion:
After being exposed to EFI tuning for the past ~15 years, I have come away with an observation that, aside from the computer barrier (in 2015 it's hardly a barrier at all), tuning EFI is actually not that difficult provided you actually understand how an engine works and responds to fuel and spark. I've found that the people who struggle with that (and say carb tuning was easier) never really understood the fundamentals in the first place. So the old guys who really get it, and got over the computer hump, actually became experts in tuning. No one is born knowing how to tune EFI but, again, if you have the fundamentals, I guarantee you can learn it.

Much like my foray into digital photography where the dSLR actually inspired me to learn how to actually compose a photo that was interesting, EFI inspired me to learn how an engine works. Not that I'm an expert, but I'm not an expert tuner, either, and don't claim to be.

Not everyone has to do their own tuning, either. This guy didn't even tune his own carb. I'm picking on that because the argument was carbs are simpler, and then he gets this carb wizard to tune it so it drives properly in all conditions.

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