Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

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kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

Post by kevm14 »

This is interesting enough that it needs its own thread. First post on the hot-vapor with links to different articles: http://forums.kevinallenmoore.com/viewt ... 1433#p5920

Quote continuation. Ionization current?? Saab did this. GM did this. Probably others. But Smokey was doing it in the 50s. I wonder if there's an SAE white paper on this. Something tells me he wasn't the kind of guy to author (or co-author) an SAE white paper. Which is a real shame.
Although the original hot-vapor engines relied on a carb with no computer, modern 21st century fuel injection and computer enhancements could be used to fail-safe the engine in event of system malfunction. For example, present engine management systems still rely on an oxygen sensor and a knock sensor to provide feedback to correct the air/fuel ratio and timing, respectively, but this a catch-up game, subject to a potentially deadly time lag on an engine always operating close to the limit. It is theoretically possible to put an inductive pickup on a spark plug wire that can be used by the computer to measure the ionization gap across the spark plug in real time. A change in the ionization gap indicating a problem in the cylinder would manifest itself as a slight change in electrical current read in milliamps. "If there's going to be a failure from temperature or heat, you'll know it instantaneously," Ralph says. "I worked on the genesis of this at Ethyl Corp. [using analog milliamp meters] all the way back in the '50s when I was still a student. With real-time feedback, the computer could then change the spark, the fuel ratio, and someday the compression ratio or the displacement to compensate before catastrophic failure occurs."
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

Post by kevm14 »

Another thread with interesting discussion:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=176663

Some quotes:
First, some Smokey Yunick credentials that are undisputable, traceable by documentation and numerous photos...B-17 pilot in WWII (1942-43, crash landed two bombers that were so shot up they failed structurally upon landing), member of Flying Tigers (1943-1944), helicopter pilot (1970's-80's), casanova (forever), motorcycle racer (1938-40), inventor (lifelong), head of Chevrolet racing development (1955-1956), Head of Ford racing (1957-1958), Head of Pontiac Racing (1959-1962), won Nascar Championships in 1951 and 1953 with Hudson, won Daytona 500 twice, won Indianapolis in 1960 (almost again in 1969, hose clamp prevented it), created the angle plug head for Chevrolet, the extended reach spark plug in your car today, etc., etc. Made and lost several fortunes, successfully searched for gold, silver and oil in Equador, was automotive consultant to Ford, Chevrolet, and Chrysler at various times in his life, knew Henry Ford II by first name, Bunkie Knudsen was his best friend, Pete Estes, Harley Earl, Mickey Thompson, Bruton Smith, Ed Cole, Zora Duntov, Richard Petty, John DeLorean, and Werner Von Braun were friends...
The hot vapor engine not only existed but was installed into at least 6 different makes of vehicles...after a thirty minute ride in the car, Ford, GM, Chrysler, DeLorean, BMW, Volvo and Volkswagen were all interested. DeLorean immediately offered 20 million (with the backing of H.L. Hunt in Texas) with a formal contract to be signed on a Thursday. DeLorean was arrested for drug possession on the preceding Tuesday, and the deal fell through. For Smokey's direct account of what happened, see page 525 of his autobiography "Best Damned Garage in Town".
Cars in which Yunick hot vapor (adiabatic) engines were installed included the DeLorean (3 cylinder), Ford Fiesta (1 cylinder), Volkswagen (2 cylinder), Pontiac Fiero (4 cylinder), Chrysler (4 cylinder) and Buick Skylark (3 cylinder). Some of these cars still survive, and Smokey's daughter has the Volkswagen and the Pontiac Fiero is owned by a collector in South Carolina. A 3 cylinder engine is in the Smithsonian, along with his trademark hat.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

Post by kevm14 »

Just need to bring this quote back from the Hot Rod article:
Eventually, there was a three-cylinder Buick (half a V-6), a Ford project, and a Mopar Omni/Horizon. Every application got more than 45 mpg and made at least 1.8 hp/ci. The Detroit OE boys and nationally certified independent labs verified all the claims and performance figures. It was on the verge of going into production (one application, for the '90 S-10 truck, got very close). Crane Cams was given a license to develop aftermarket retrofit kits. Then everything fell apart.
Now, bear with me for a sec. Instead of putting on the conspiracy theorists hat and bleat about how amazing this would have been except for conspiracy X and Y, imagine an alternate scenario in which it actually WAS successfully brought to market. Doesn't this hot-vapor engine sound exactly like something GM would have done, without working out 100% of the bugs? Great on paper but some fatal flaws. Sound familiar? Should sound very familiar.

Anyway, this falls into that unfortunate category of "damned if you do, and damned if you don't."
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

Post by kevm14 »

Ralph Johnson worked for smokey up through the mid 80's and I was a shop assistant. Drove a few hot vapor mobile myself. There was a pontiac sunbird with very tall gearing that was reasonably efficient and could scoot.
At the risk of of posthumously insulting the guy who hired me, there are advantages to hot vapor most of which are accomplished with better transmissions of today and fuel injector spray qualities, vastly improved mixture prep and transport and improved combustion geometry, reduced ring drag, reduced ring crevice volume, etc. Higher efficiencies at lower rpm's accomplish the same thing at a lower cost. The advantages of hot vapor cycle are real but expensive and not practical in all climates. When I worked there it became obvious that the system depended on huge manifold volumes and going closed loop would be damn difficult due to long fuel transport delays. I am not faulting the man but TBI FI was needed and did not make the cut, I believe, since Smokey did not feel he could trust me or others with calibration.. I urged him and annoyed Ralph with comments about adopting FI. Again, knowing it would piss my elders off, I mentioned FI till the cows came home if for no other reason to compensate for Durability issues that were as real then as they are now.
There was a lot of good thinking that might have seen light of day had Smokey allowed me or someone more qualified to apply FI to HVC but even with best case injection and calibration the system then required massive manifold volumes. Long after being fired the second time :) I built a 2.2 liter HVC that essentially required way different cam, taller gearing, a lot more manifold heat with less volume and other stuff. I wound up with a modified IHI, an expensive pile of aluminum and a set of wheels that hauled ass like a wildcat after a tabasco enema all while knocking down 40mpg in a dodge minivan.
You know I was already asking the question "why not TBI?" The comment about long transport delays affecting the viability of closed loop is interesting. But obviously with extremely lean AFRs, you aren't going to be looking at a conventional exhaust mounted O2 sensor, right? Certainly a pyrometer would be mandatory, probably from each cylinder.
kevm14
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Re: Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

Post by kevm14 »

Regarding fuel injection vs carburetor once the fuel is heated to a vapor state it doesn't matter what method is used as long as mixture ratio is correct. Technology at the time (mid 80's) favored carb for reasons of durability and ease of adjustment. Emission focus was on HC and CO. I suspect NOX #'s were fairly high but that wasn't much of a concern at the time the R+D was taking place. The engine worked. Fuel in/ work out #'s are pretty impressive
Sounds like something special would have had to be done about NOx, at least eventually. EGR certainly wouldn't have done it. A regular cat wouldn't have done it, as those require switching just rich and just lean of stoich to function properly. Maybe, just maybe, urea injection?
Adam
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Smokey Yunick hot-vapor engine

Post by Adam »

kevm14 wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, urea injection?
Works wonders for diesels.
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