I don't really disagree with most of what you are saying. The new ATS and CTS are the best cars that size Cadillac ever made.
I do disagree about the CT6 though. It is great, but it is not at the level of Mercedes Maybach or S-Class, and the whole premise of my argument is that a luxury brand needs cars that actually have prestige to sell the lower class/series volume cars.
The S-Class starts at 90K, the Maybach starts at 168K. Translation: You are not buying or leasing one of these unless you make a lot of money. That means "status" to people. The CT6 starts at 54K. You don't have to make a ton to have poor judgement and stretch your budget to get in a 54K car. That means people without "status" can get it. That invalidates prestige for the brand when less than rich people can afford the "flagship". Yes, the CT6 optioned up gets to almost 85K ( as shown on the website, I am sure it can go a little higher if you want but it is still less than the base S-Class) but that doesn't matter because the options don't add prestige when "non-rich" are easily entering the market.
This is what I meant by desire. People don't desire a 54K car, they desire the status of the Maybach or S-Class. That is really what is defining the brand image.
Translation - Cadillac is trying to have prestige while only selling the C an E class (albeit they do make the AMG versions of them too with the V cars). That is why they are failing. (C and E start at 40 and 52K respectively). Mercedes doesn't have prestige because they make the C class. If anything people argue it cheapens their brands prestige to even sell cars that cheap.
You have to understand that making good cars like the ATS, ATS, and CT6 has nothing to do with Prestige. The sad part is that if the CT6 was slightly better, like if it had something like 75 way self adjusting seats, and started at 100K it may have done it.
GM cars to potentially be axed
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
It sounds like the key is to have a vehicle with a very high starting price. And it can't be an ELR. The Escalade I guess already qualifies as rolling in one of those literally says "I spent a lot of money on this" which people may or may not translate into that person's actual income (or stupidity).
The CT6 is a start and being between a 5 and 7 in size should have no expectation to be a Maybach competitor. But they are working their way up to it.
I really would like to see a large CT8 type vehicle, something that resembles some of their jaw dropping concept cars of the past 10 years.
In terms of badge snobbery, it's like with Ricky at work. I tried to get him to at least drive an ATS because I am pretty sure he would have done better for the money than the 320i he ended up with. He just needed that badge and he admitted it. There's a lot of buyers just like him out there.
The CT6 is a start and being between a 5 and 7 in size should have no expectation to be a Maybach competitor. But they are working their way up to it.
I really would like to see a large CT8 type vehicle, something that resembles some of their jaw dropping concept cars of the past 10 years.
In terms of badge snobbery, it's like with Ricky at work. I tried to get him to at least drive an ATS because I am pretty sure he would have done better for the money than the 320i he ended up with. He just needed that badge and he admitted it. There's a lot of buyers just like him out there.
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
That is my whole point. Cadillac is doing it in reverse as far as the badge. They need the big crazy halo car to sell the badge first, and people will buy the ATS and CTS, especially since they are really good now.
You can't sell prestige with the lower cars. Cadillac doesn't have a good car problem, they have a prestige problem which is preventing "those" people from buying their good cars.
You can't sell prestige with the lower cars. Cadillac doesn't have a good car problem, they have a prestige problem which is preventing "those" people from buying their good cars.
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
Did the Phaeton help VW sell more cars?
I do think the Corvette must help Chevrolet sell cars but I will say GM these days is walking a very tight line between profitability and risk taking. Every risk they take seems to be incredibly calculated and weighted, but not in a destructive way like during the Roger Smith years. Maybe the Ford GT is a good example of what you are talking about. I don't think the results are guaranteed though. Maybe that is too extreme, especially since Ford is Ford. They make the Fiesta, a car that earns precisely zero additional credibility due to the existence of the GT.
Cadillac does also have a substantive problem. There are enough issues with the ATS and CTS to keep them from being even objectively desired by most buyers, other than driving enthusiasts. I think the main issue there is packaging and interior. Oh, those are both interior things. Look at that.
Their bread and butter engine, that 3.6L V6, is also pretty uninteresting to people. So again, it seems like the solution is one I don't necessarily think they should chase - more complicated engine lines and more expensive interiors. By placing the CT4 below a 3 and the CT5 above a 3, they can possibly sneak around the packaging issues by pushing the reset button on customer expectations. Again, my CTS-V is definitely a notch more roomy than a 3 series of the time, perhaps closer to a 5. It was between. The STS was really weird as with additional wheelbase it probably was about even with a 5-series, maybe a TOUCH more, but was seemingly sold as being between a 5 and 7. Even splitting requires care.
The idea with the splitting, by the way, is not just the cynical "well they can't compete so they should just stop trying and do something else.". It's also taking a clean look at what buyers might need or want and offering it. The Germans are pretty devoted to their 3 size system and it seems to work for them. But who's to say something between a 3 and 5 is not actually a useful size for potential buyers?
I do think the Corvette must help Chevrolet sell cars but I will say GM these days is walking a very tight line between profitability and risk taking. Every risk they take seems to be incredibly calculated and weighted, but not in a destructive way like during the Roger Smith years. Maybe the Ford GT is a good example of what you are talking about. I don't think the results are guaranteed though. Maybe that is too extreme, especially since Ford is Ford. They make the Fiesta, a car that earns precisely zero additional credibility due to the existence of the GT.
Cadillac does also have a substantive problem. There are enough issues with the ATS and CTS to keep them from being even objectively desired by most buyers, other than driving enthusiasts. I think the main issue there is packaging and interior. Oh, those are both interior things. Look at that.
Their bread and butter engine, that 3.6L V6, is also pretty uninteresting to people. So again, it seems like the solution is one I don't necessarily think they should chase - more complicated engine lines and more expensive interiors. By placing the CT4 below a 3 and the CT5 above a 3, they can possibly sneak around the packaging issues by pushing the reset button on customer expectations. Again, my CTS-V is definitely a notch more roomy than a 3 series of the time, perhaps closer to a 5. It was between. The STS was really weird as with additional wheelbase it probably was about even with a 5-series, maybe a TOUCH more, but was seemingly sold as being between a 5 and 7. Even splitting requires care.
The idea with the splitting, by the way, is not just the cynical "well they can't compete so they should just stop trying and do something else.". It's also taking a clean look at what buyers might need or want and offering it. The Germans are pretty devoted to their 3 size system and it seems to work for them. But who's to say something between a 3 and 5 is not actually a useful size for potential buyers?
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
Your arguments are not really to my point. VW is not a luxury brand. Having a really expensive car for a non luxury brand will quickly get you "nobody is gonna pay that for a Chevy". Hyundai is a perfect example. Nobody is gonna pay Genesis money for a Hyundai, so they made a luxury Genesis brand or whatever they are doing with that. Also, if a company can't sell a car that costs that much, then maybe the reverse is true, and it isn't actually a luxury brand anymore...
For the performance stuff with the GT and Corvette, a halo sports car is different from actual Prestige classes to elevate the whole brand. It is similar yes, but sports car sales and Luxury car sales are slightly different. I am sure the Corvette helps Camaro sales, but I doubt the Chevy Corvette helps Volt, Cruze, Malibu, Impala etc. sales. The S class is what is Mercedes. It is the brand, and it is the only reason the C class sells. Without the S Class prestige for the brand, the C class would not sell. If Mercedes stopped selling the S class and Maybach, there is no draw to the C class. You just aren't getting people in the dealerships. In my opinion, the C Class is a badge, that the S class made. Same for anyone who buys a BMW only because they need "a" BMW, not even knowing the specs or model.
Cadillac needs a real Prestige car to sell the badge. I am not hating on Cadillac, I really believe this. I wanted the CT6 to be it, but if their most expensive car starts at 54K, that is still discount luxury, which fails.
For the performance stuff with the GT and Corvette, a halo sports car is different from actual Prestige classes to elevate the whole brand. It is similar yes, but sports car sales and Luxury car sales are slightly different. I am sure the Corvette helps Camaro sales, but I doubt the Chevy Corvette helps Volt, Cruze, Malibu, Impala etc. sales. The S class is what is Mercedes. It is the brand, and it is the only reason the C class sells. Without the S Class prestige for the brand, the C class would not sell. If Mercedes stopped selling the S class and Maybach, there is no draw to the C class. You just aren't getting people in the dealerships. In my opinion, the C Class is a badge, that the S class made. Same for anyone who buys a BMW only because they need "a" BMW, not even knowing the specs or model.
Cadillac needs a real Prestige car to sell the badge. I am not hating on Cadillac, I really believe this. I wanted the CT6 to be it, but if their most expensive car starts at 54K, that is still discount luxury, which fails.
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
Yeah I agree, halo sports cars are not the same as luxury halos. I was just trying to draw potential parallels.
A slightly different take on this argument, which doesn't really refute the necessity of a true prestige model, is that I have always been frustrated how down market some Euro-only offerings have been for what Americans perceive as exclusive, high end luxury brands. There are really sad trim levels and engine choices for vehicles, and I am not really even talking about just stuff like a 3 series or C class. What I will say is the Germans are calculating precisely when to start to head down market over on our shores, and are slowly doing so. We now have a BMW 320i here while it existed in Europe for, no kidding, over 30 years. We did have a 318 but I digress.
I think this did help their American perception but you could argue that since the high end models still existed, it would have been fine. I partially agree. But I do wonder if, all along, Europeans had the equivalent of the $54k CT6 as a domestic model/trim.
For example, there was an E38 7-series in 728i trim, from 95-01. It had 190hp. They also had a turbo diesel in the range of 100-135 hp. You can say, hey, different market. Yeah, sure, but this was the 7 series, not some city car. I could dig up more stuff but I suspect those $54k CT6 equivalents existed all along. However, the OEMs shielded the Americans from them, creating the illusion of only expensive stuff. Once Americans bought into that, they are now steadily releasing cheaper models. It's kind of frustrating to watch.
A slightly different take on this argument, which doesn't really refute the necessity of a true prestige model, is that I have always been frustrated how down market some Euro-only offerings have been for what Americans perceive as exclusive, high end luxury brands. There are really sad trim levels and engine choices for vehicles, and I am not really even talking about just stuff like a 3 series or C class. What I will say is the Germans are calculating precisely when to start to head down market over on our shores, and are slowly doing so. We now have a BMW 320i here while it existed in Europe for, no kidding, over 30 years. We did have a 318 but I digress.
I think this did help their American perception but you could argue that since the high end models still existed, it would have been fine. I partially agree. But I do wonder if, all along, Europeans had the equivalent of the $54k CT6 as a domestic model/trim.
For example, there was an E38 7-series in 728i trim, from 95-01. It had 190hp. They also had a turbo diesel in the range of 100-135 hp. You can say, hey, different market. Yeah, sure, but this was the 7 series, not some city car. I could dig up more stuff but I suspect those $54k CT6 equivalents existed all along. However, the OEMs shielded the Americans from them, creating the illusion of only expensive stuff. Once Americans bought into that, they are now steadily releasing cheaper models. It's kind of frustrating to watch.
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
Total side note but this is awesome. I just learned about the E38 "L7" model. Take a 750iL. Then add 10 inches of wheelbase. That's right.
Check this out.From 1997 to 2001, BMW sold an extended wheelbase limousine model called the L7.[34][35] The wheelbase was extended by 25 cm (10 in) over the "iL" models, resulting in an overall length of 5.37 m (211 in).[36] Features included electrically adjustable rear seats, rear footrests, fold down rear trays, a fridge, rear television screen, video player, fax machine.[36][37]
Based on the 750iL with a 12-cylinder engine, the L7 has a top speed of 250 km/h (155 mph).[38] The L7 was only available in the Middle East, Southeast Asia and Europe, and 899 examples were built.[33] The 2000-2001 models had an optional "privacy window" glass partition to separate the driver from the rear passengers.[39]
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
Did a little more research. The 728i had roughly a 65% price of the 740i automatic, looking at Euro prices of both.
Roughly speaking, that means:
- A 2001 E38 740i based at $62,900, or $87,600 in 2018 dollars. This is the lowest model we got.
- That means a 728i would have based at $40,964 in 2001, or $57k in 2018 dollars. This is the lowest model that actually existed.
So you can see my frustration. It's not that the models didn't exist - it's just that the Americans didn't really know about them. And you'd be right to argue that the market doesn't care if the model exists or not, as long as it is not available. Basically, if I plunked down $63k in 2001 for a 740i, I can be sure my neighbor won't roll up in a $41k 728i, potentially diminishing the exclusivity of my purchase. I just don't like that it was done artificially. It's not like the E38 was so precious and amazing that the cheapest BMW could possibly afford to sell ANY model was the 740i at $63k. It is fundamentally a cheaper car than we perceived. That's what bothers me.
Maybe what I am also asking is, why can the Europeans understand trims and models but Americans cannot? We require stupidity like entirely different brands. The Lexus LS400 was the Toyota Celsior, for example. Our Acura TL in the mid to late 2000s was just a Euro Honda Accord with higher trim levels. There was also the Honda Legend (and Honda NSX). I could go on, and on.
It just seems like Americans are the only market super critical of our own stuff (i.e. a $57k-equivalent 7-series can happily exist in Europe but a $54k CT6 is an abomination that cannot exist in the US, and Europeans have no problem with some low end E-class taxi with vinyl seats) and the entire rest of the world has a much more nationalistic view of their domestic product. But in the US it is completely passe (or even considered ignorant) to like the domestic product. It has always annoyed me greatly. And if you are going to say that's because the US didn't build anything worth being proud of since the 1960s, I am going to vehemently disagree with that all day long. Our culture has a fascination with the rest of the world that, for some odd reason, the rest of the world doesn't seem to have of us, except in seemingly small pockets. Unless that's just the perception I get from our garbage media...
Looks like this topic struck a nerve for sure.
Roughly speaking, that means:
- A 2001 E38 740i based at $62,900, or $87,600 in 2018 dollars. This is the lowest model we got.
- That means a 728i would have based at $40,964 in 2001, or $57k in 2018 dollars. This is the lowest model that actually existed.
So you can see my frustration. It's not that the models didn't exist - it's just that the Americans didn't really know about them. And you'd be right to argue that the market doesn't care if the model exists or not, as long as it is not available. Basically, if I plunked down $63k in 2001 for a 740i, I can be sure my neighbor won't roll up in a $41k 728i, potentially diminishing the exclusivity of my purchase. I just don't like that it was done artificially. It's not like the E38 was so precious and amazing that the cheapest BMW could possibly afford to sell ANY model was the 740i at $63k. It is fundamentally a cheaper car than we perceived. That's what bothers me.
Maybe what I am also asking is, why can the Europeans understand trims and models but Americans cannot? We require stupidity like entirely different brands. The Lexus LS400 was the Toyota Celsior, for example. Our Acura TL in the mid to late 2000s was just a Euro Honda Accord with higher trim levels. There was also the Honda Legend (and Honda NSX). I could go on, and on.
It just seems like Americans are the only market super critical of our own stuff (i.e. a $57k-equivalent 7-series can happily exist in Europe but a $54k CT6 is an abomination that cannot exist in the US, and Europeans have no problem with some low end E-class taxi with vinyl seats) and the entire rest of the world has a much more nationalistic view of their domestic product. But in the US it is completely passe (or even considered ignorant) to like the domestic product. It has always annoyed me greatly. And if you are going to say that's because the US didn't build anything worth being proud of since the 1960s, I am going to vehemently disagree with that all day long. Our culture has a fascination with the rest of the world that, for some odd reason, the rest of the world doesn't seem to have of us, except in seemingly small pockets. Unless that's just the perception I get from our garbage media...
Looks like this topic struck a nerve for sure.
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
Bill mentioned that the S-class was at a higher luxury level than the 7-series. I don't actually disagree. So let's look at Mercedes and see if my issue is still true, or falls apart.
In 2001, Mercedes had a W220 S-class, which ran from 2000-2006 in the US. So kind of one gen later than my E38 example. This is actually better because it's more recent, and an S-class.
2001 S280 MSRP in the UK: £44,410
2001 S500 MSRP in the UK: £60,110
S280 was 74% the price of the S500.
2001 S500 MSRP in the US: $78,950. In 2018 dollars that is $109,960.85.
2001 S280 MSRP in the US hypothetically: $58,329. In 2018 dollars that is $81,240.10.
Now you might say this proves Bill's point. I'm not sure it does. The S280 is equivalent to the 728i in powertrain (same displacement and power). It's kind of like having a loaded CT6 with the 2.0L turbo as the base model (priced, say, in the mid $70k range, which may actually be possible with options - haven't checked), something I assume people would scoff at and say "that ain't gonna work." You could argue that would be EVEN WORSE than a $54k CT6. Yet it worked for Mercedes. Why? I can say that it at least appears that the S280 probably included a lot more standard features than the 728i, justifying a portion of the price difference.
I should note that Mercedes (or BMW) did not choose to import lower trim models and while I speculated that was to (artificially) keep the brand/model more pure for the very image conscious US market, I also suspect that exchange rates may have made it prohibitive to sell an S280 type car for $81k (in 2018 dollars).
I could look at the A8 next. I think there is a trend here.
In 2001, Mercedes had a W220 S-class, which ran from 2000-2006 in the US. So kind of one gen later than my E38 example. This is actually better because it's more recent, and an S-class.
2001 S280 MSRP in the UK: £44,410
2001 S500 MSRP in the UK: £60,110
S280 was 74% the price of the S500.
2001 S500 MSRP in the US: $78,950. In 2018 dollars that is $109,960.85.
2001 S280 MSRP in the US hypothetically: $58,329. In 2018 dollars that is $81,240.10.
Now you might say this proves Bill's point. I'm not sure it does. The S280 is equivalent to the 728i in powertrain (same displacement and power). It's kind of like having a loaded CT6 with the 2.0L turbo as the base model (priced, say, in the mid $70k range, which may actually be possible with options - haven't checked), something I assume people would scoff at and say "that ain't gonna work." You could argue that would be EVEN WORSE than a $54k CT6. Yet it worked for Mercedes. Why? I can say that it at least appears that the S280 probably included a lot more standard features than the 728i, justifying a portion of the price difference.
I should note that Mercedes (or BMW) did not choose to import lower trim models and while I speculated that was to (artificially) keep the brand/model more pure for the very image conscious US market, I also suspect that exchange rates may have made it prohibitive to sell an S280 type car for $81k (in 2018 dollars).
I could look at the A8 next. I think there is a trend here.
Re: GM cars to potentially be axed
The inflation-adjusted price of the base US S-class in 2001 was $98,600 for an S430. It actually got cheaper!! I am sure if this means anything. I would argue that the S-class has gone slightly down market. At least the base model available to the US.kevm14 wrote: 2001 S280 MSRP in the UK: £44,410
2001 S500 MSRP in the UK: £60,110
S280 was 74% the price of the S500.
2001 S500 MSRP in the US: $78,950. In 2018 dollars that is $109,960.85.
2001 S280 MSRP in the US hypothetically: $58,329. In 2018 dollars that is $81,240.10.
The base S today is the 450 I think and is like $90,000.