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2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:11 pm
by kevm14
I skimmed it. I had an analysis going but it is bed time now...

I continue to be a little underwhelmed by the ZL1 1LE. Almost as fast as a Z06...I mean it is a little cheaper but it's also not as fast. I think the regular ZL1 is the daily dream car, though.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:31 am
by kevm14
More thoughts:
I think the magic of Alpha got diluted as you approach the performance levels of the Z06. And it's kind of funny that at those levels, the same issues apply (i.e. you aren't going to approach the limits with your foot on the floor and one finger on the wheel - you have to drive the car). So all those times we were reading about Alpha vehicles being more enjoyable with more approachable limits than, say, the Corvettes, well, that's because the limits were lower. When in Z06 territory, there is no free lunch. And unlike the Z06, you totally ruin the streetability of the car at those levels.

That said, the 2018 1LE approaches 2015 Z06 performance for $27k less money. That is certainly worth something. But it's still over a second off. And the Z06 is a far, far more pleasant and reasonable daily driver (the Porsche formula), which is also worth something. If you downgrade to the daily driver spec ZL1 (non-1LE) you save $5k but you are also now 5.5 seconds off the Z06 which is a very, very large gap. I am not saying lap times are everything but it puts the performance difference down on paper very clearly. Of course they admitted that they could have gotten another 2 seconds out of it had track conditions been better, so there's that.

Oh, link. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/li ... ir-feature

Let's look at the historical times.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/li ... ar-feature

Looking at these times, the car that still strikes me as kind of the bargain super sports car is the 2017 Corvette Grand Sport. The list of cars it is faster than is embarassing both in terms of horsepower and cost. Yes as tested it was $92k but for your $8k savings on the Z06, you get a 2:47 lap time and a car that is actually usable at the limit, with only 460 hp. The fastest an Alpha Camaro can run with this exact engine is a 2:54.8 via the Camaro SS 1LE. Miles apart. And, again, to be fair, miles apart in cost - the Camaro was only $44k. Less than half.

In summary, the points I am trying to make are:
- I don't support this narrative that the Camaro is "awesome" and the Corvette is "meh" - the Corvette has a whole value and absolute performance thing going for it in its own right. And when you are looking for all out performance, you will have a better total end product with a dedicated sports car chassis than trying to adapt Alpha, as good as it is. Not totally unlike what happens to the Focus RS.
- Specifically when you get close to C7 Z06 levels of performance, an Alpha chassis car begins to have the same challenges at the limit as the Z06 did i.e. there is no free lunch.
- The performance level of the Z06 and ZL1 1LE is just totally unnecessary for regular people driving on the street (yes I finally said it, because even on the track they are a challenge to wring out). My pick for an under 2:50 car that you can actually drive on the street is the Grand Sport. And I definitely also give the nod to the regular ZL1.
- The ZL1 1LE is in very good territory having beaten the 911 Turbo S this year. But that win is diminished, depending on your requirements, by the total non-streetability of that car. It is more Viper ACR than 911 or Z06. That is significant and relevant. Again, the dedicated sports car platform makes a better street car than the street car platform turned into performance. Kind of interesting.
- Oh, and the GT-R is a total embarrassment. 2:53??? From the "Track" edition?? For almost $130k?? Fail. This vehicle is, as we say, OBE.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:57 pm
by kevm14
These freaking cars.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/al ... 17-feature
But on the first day of damp lapping, the Alfa began acting as if it were suffering from fuel starvation in the tight left-hand Turn 4, even as its gauge indicated a quarter-tank of gas. This can happen when driving a street car on a track, so we didn’t think much of it. But then it happened again in the same spot, with three-quarters of a tank. And again in the right-hand Oak Tree.
With the mechanical glitches, it was difficult to find a rhythm with the Giulia. Our best time, 2:58.6, was on a ragged set of Pirellis. With some good fortune, the Alfa might have turned a quicker lap. Don’t be surprised if you see another Quadrifoglio at a future Lightning Lap.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:56 pm
by bill25
For Daily, I pick the ZL1. It has a back seat, a trunk and is just more of a daily than a 2 seat car to me. The Corvette is great, the Camaro is practically the same, but As-Tested Price: $68,225, VS As-tested price: $92,060 for the Grand Sport, so 24K difference for less than 3 seconds (bad ZL1 lap)... over 4 miles and the Camaro is more practical.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ch ... 17-feature
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ch ... 16-feature

I do agree the ZL1 1LE is probably not a daily. But As-Tested Price: $73,090 VS. As-Tested Price: $100,245 the Z06, which had the Z07 package, and only did 1 second better for 27K more.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ch ... 17-feature
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ch ... 15-feature

Unless 24 to 27K is nothing to you, it sounds like the Camaro is the bargain either way. Also, at 3 seconds or less (sucks that the ZL1 time was admittedly a poor lap) difference over 4 miles, these are practically the same. Especially on the street. So, buy which ever you want, you are getting a great car. That Corvette logo comes with a 20K premium price though...

I also don't want to hear crap about price over base as tested because Car and Driver already prefaces that the price over base is supposed to be capability, not paint and stripes.

All links are from clicking each car from here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/li ... ar-feature


Also enough with the Chevy VS Chevy. The regular ZL1 beat the new NSX, 2015 Porsche 911 GT3, BMW M4 GTS (2016), and...Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R (2016) Wooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The ZL1 1LE is number 7 of all cars ever tested and the spread is 2.5 seconds.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:45 am
by kevm14
billgiacheri wrote:For Daily, I pick the ZL1. It has a back seat, a trunk and is just more of a daily than a 2 seat car to me.
Definitely. And the performance level has nothing to apologize for.
I do agree the ZL1 1LE is probably not a daily. But As-Tested Price: $73,090 VS. As-Tested Price: $100,245 the Z06, which had the Z07 package, and only did 1 second better for 27K more.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ch ... 17-feature
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ch ... 15-feature
Couple things. First, GM themselves don't think the 1LE is a daily - that was quoted somewhere. That said, the completeness of the car is a real head scratcher. I have no idea what they are trying to pull off with leaving all the luxury stuff inside. It's not going to fool anyone - the shocks don't have a "don't break my back" setting. It could have been even lighter since it is a focused track toy. The GT350R is probably more pleasant to drive on the street.

Second, here's the part where the Z06 has a huge advantage: it did 1 second better 3 years ago. What does that mean? It means there are 3 year depreciated examples running around for far less than as tested.
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sal ... Code1=CORV

This thing depreciated around $35k after 3 years and only 9k miles. Yes it has Z07 and the Sport Cup 2 tires. This shifts the equation pretty dramatically. For $8k less you can have a little better performance and much better street manners. I'm not saying daily driver.

Anyway, that's the advantage (for the older car) of a new car meeting a similar performance threshold earlier as another one - it has depreciated in all the time between when it came out and when the new one (ZL1 1LE) came out. For purposes of this discussion comparing to a 2018 vehicle you can't penalize it for having been a $100k car - today, it is a $65k car, at least I posted an example of one. And if it turns out the ZL1 1LE is available for less than MSRP, then we can talk about that when we have the data.

And for the record, I have been consistent about my streetability requirement - I am hard on the Focus RS, the Viper ACR and other vehicles that so completely sacrifice any semblance of road comfort for performance. You don't need to look at a Cadillac Fleetwood to find vast comfort/manners differences even in a very high performance echelon of cars. Other vehicles that exist prove you don't need to do that depending on how you engineer the vehicle.
Also enough with the Chevy VS Chevy. The regular ZL1 beat the new NSX, 2015 Porsche 911 GT3, BMW M4 GTS (2016), and...Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R (2016) Wooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The ZL1 1LE is number 7 of all cars ever tested and the spread is 2.5 seconds.
I like to compare and contrast - just because they are GM doesn't mean I can't do a critical analysis of their relative characteristics.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:14 am
by kevm14
kevm14 wrote:These freaking cars.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/al ... 17-feature
But on the first day of damp lapping, the Alfa began acting as if it were suffering from fuel starvation in the tight left-hand Turn 4, even as its gauge indicated a quarter-tank of gas. This can happen when driving a street car on a track, so we didn’t think much of it. But then it happened again in the same spot, with three-quarters of a tank. And again in the right-hand Oak Tree.
With the mechanical glitches, it was difficult to find a rhythm with the Giulia. Our best time, 2:58.6, was on a ragged set of Pirellis. With some good fortune, the Alfa might have turned a quicker lap. Don’t be surprised if you see another Quadrifoglio at a future Lightning Lap.
LOL
Originally Posted by Ryephile
Is anyone else surprised the Quadriplegio actually completed a lap?
There's no word on if the Quadriplegico had working A/C, infotainment, windows, or if the check engine light was on. Any or all of those might have been the case while still completing hot laps.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:49 am
by kevm14
A few more observations from the historical lap time list.

Lexus LC500. I don't know what the hell this is but it seems pretty terrible to me.
Cost: $105k
Weight: 4,394 lbs. It's a COUPE for crying out loud.
Lap: 3:04.8

A few GM pieces of "lesser" iron to put that in perspective:
09 CTS-V sedan ran a 3:04
V6 Camaro 1LE ran a 3:04
Hell a 2014 CTS Vsport ran a 3:06.8
07 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6!
2016 ATS-V coupe ran a 2:59.2

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:52 am
by kevm14
The AMG E63 S is quite a vehicle. It is the single fastest sedan to have ever done the LL. It also tied the ZL1 for loudest on the track, which is pretty badass for this class of vehicle. This now runs AWD btw.

On the other hand, it costs $135k and was only 1.4 seconds faster than the 2016 CTS-V which was $98k as tested. Not the same domination as the Corvettes and Alpha vehicles but then the E63 S is particularly good.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:55 am
by kevm14
Speaking of track-worthy Mercedes products, the GT R is unbelievable. Thing lapped faster than the Viper ACR and #3 is in the entire history.

This one is a good example of what money can buy because it is a nice car, and is brutal on the track. For only $196k. Amazingly it is under 3,700 lbs, too.

But this is my favorite part:
There is another car that wears the GT R’s optional Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires, though. Michelin developed this version of the Cup 2 for use on the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 with the Z07 package.
Plus the mini feature on these tires:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/if-you-can ... tte-tires/
Tires are easily the single most critical component to a vehicle’s performance. For example, simply swapping tires can improve the cornering grip of a Nissan Leaf from ho-hum to near Porsche 911 levels—we tried it. And, as we’ve witnessed at our annual Lightning Lap track test, grip at the performance end of the spectrum has radically increased over the past decade. From our inaugural event in 2006, the peak grip we’ve measured in Virginia International Raceway’s Turn 1 (Horse Shoe) has swelled roughly 20 percent, from 1.01 g (a Dodge Viper SRT10 wearing Michelin Pilot Sport tires) to the 1.21 g pulled by this year’s Mercedes-AMG GT R.

That’s why we’re always vigilantly scanning the rubber worn by the Lightning Lap contenders to ensure there’s no cheating or non-factory fitments. Which brings us back to this year’s Mercedes-AMG GT R. That it rode on what appeared to be Corvette tires—including the TPC Spec number molded into their sidewalls, which indicates compliance with General Motors’ internal Test Performance Criteria requirements—was a head scratcher. It turns out that these are both Corvette tires and a factory fitment for AMG’s sharpest GT scalpel. Allow us to explain.

Michelin’s Pilot Sport Cup 2 is the standard tire on the GT R, but our test car wore a different version of the Cup 2. The slightly wider shoes on this GT R were the ones that Chevrolet and Michelin developed for the 2015 Corvette Z06 fitted with the optional Z07 package. Mercedes confirmed that these tires are indeed also offered from its factory. But since “Corvette tires” would look odd on an AMG window sticker, Mercedes instead calls them Extreme-Performance Sport tires, and the option is a no-cost upgrade.

If the idea of having two versions of Cup 2s for a single model seems weird, that’s because it is. And it gets even weirder: Choose this option and, following assembly, the GT R departs the plant in Sindelfingen, Germany, for AMG’s Performance Studio in Affalterbach, about 30 miles northeast—right next door to where the GT R’s twin-turbo 4.0-liter V-8 is hand assembled—for the tire swap before re-entering the regular logistics process that sends it on to its final destination.

In our experience, German manufacturers typically are more concerned than their Yankee counterparts with the wet grip of their high-perform­ance tires. For the Z06, Michelin was free to beef up dry grip, which is traditionally at odds with wet grip. It’s hard to fault Mercedes for using such a capable tire, and the Vette team should be flattered that AMG’s heaviest hitter is available with their tires, although they probably wouldn’t like to learn that the GT R one-upped the Z06 by 0.01 g to set a new record grip of 1.21 g’s in VIR’s Turn 1 this year.

Re: 2017 Lightning Lap

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:04 am
by Bob
kevm14 wrote:A few more observations from the historical lap time list.

Lexus LC500. I don't know what the hell this is but it seems pretty terrible to me.
Cost: $105k
Weight: 4,394 lbs. It's a COUPE for crying out loud.
Lap: 3:04.8

A few GM pieces of "lesser" iron to put that in perspective:
09 CTS-V sedan ran a 3:04
V6 Camaro 1LE ran a 3:04
Hell a 2014 CTS Vsport ran a 3:06.8
07 Corvette Z51 ran a 3:03.6!
2016 ATS-V coupe ran a 2:59.2
To be fair, I don't think the LC500 was made for the purpose of generating fast lap times. I see this more as a spiritual successor to the SC400 in a much cooler body.