Well pump pressure experiment
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
Lowered again to 45/65. Had to adjust the hysteresis knob to keep the spread at 20 psi. Dropped pressure tank to 43. It was over 50 when I checked it and I set it at 47....something is still wrong here. We'll see how 45/65 runs. I did shut the pump off and it held 63 psi for 10 minutes. I would be curious to try a longer time but there is no gross leak in the system at least.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
I emptied the water into a bucket until the pump clicked on. It shut off around 65 psi on the gauge.
1pm
About 30 seconds later it fell to 64 psi.
63 MINUTES later it fell another 1 psi to 63.
Not coming up with an issue in this area. Is it possible the gauge is actually inaccurate? A false high reading could cause the symptom of insufficient water reserve in the pressure tank but does NOT explain why the air pressure in the tank rises over time. I am trying to figure out if everything is related or if more than one issue is occuring.
1pm
Not coming up with an issue in this area. Is it possible the gauge is actually inaccurate? A false high reading could cause the symptom of insufficient water reserve in the pressure tank but does NOT explain why the air pressure in the tank rises over time. I am trying to figure out if everything is related or if more than one issue is occuring.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
This might over stretch the diaphragm but I am tempted to let all the air out while maintaining water pressure. I want to see if any water comes out of the schrader valve. If it does, then I am simply dealing with a bad pressure tank I guess. If not, then I still don't know.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
Thought about it more. I'll lay down this simple hypothesis: More than likely my original crank-up-the-pressure experiment caused the diaphragm to leak (but not totally fail) so there is probably water sitting on top of the diaphragm. Then there is air above that. The only way to purge the water would be to let all the air out of the tank while maintaining full water pressure (something I have never done). Get all the water out (maybe try to capture it in a bucket to measure). Then drain the water side (the side that is supposed to have water), refill the tank to the proper 43 psi, and try again. Maybe the lower operating pressure (I was at 55/75 and have shifted back down to 45/65) will help, as long as the diaphragm isn't too far gone.
If it is, then I learned an expensive lesson even though I think the pressures are within acceptable operating limits of the tank.
If it's just seepage then maybe I can just do this as a maintenance item once a year or something.
Oh, and I need to close the loop of causality on the air pressure. The air pressure increases because water is going into the air side, which displaces the air, driving pressure up. My guess is there may be as much as like 4-5 gallons of water on top of the diaphragm at this point (approximately equal to the lost water capacity I have noticed). We shall see. I think I have a way to measure.
If it is, then I learned an expensive lesson even though I think the pressures are within acceptable operating limits of the tank.
If it's just seepage then maybe I can just do this as a maintenance item once a year or something.
Oh, and I need to close the loop of causality on the air pressure. The air pressure increases because water is going into the air side, which displaces the air, driving pressure up. My guess is there may be as much as like 4-5 gallons of water on top of the diaphragm at this point (approximately equal to the lost water capacity I have noticed). We shall see. I think I have a way to measure.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
I was right. There was water in the air section on top of the diaphragm. I used the water pressure to squeeze the diaphragm to push the water out but it never stopped. I was on 4+ buckets so clearly it is torn. I drained the water, inflated the air part and put it back into service. Oddly the air part doesn't seem to leak so it's still a somewhat strange failure. But given that it's some kind of moving part in there, it still makes sense that a fold/crease could leak one way and not another.
TL;DR: I am going to need a new pressure tank if I want this issue to go away. I did the bucket capacity test after the water drainage and it had 1/2-1 bucket additional capacity but that is far short of what it should be.
TL;DR: I am going to need a new pressure tank if I want this issue to go away. I did the bucket capacity test after the water drainage and it had 1/2-1 bucket additional capacity but that is far short of what it should be.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
The plot thickens.
I sent an e-mail to Amtrol warranty support to see if they can do anything for me. They asked for the serial number, which I provided. Then they asked for paperwork regarding the installation. I don't have this but I'm trying to obtain it.
As part of that, I called the guy who did the well drilling and upgraded the tank at my request (I paid $250 extra for this). He said he is no longer affiliated with DS Lorenson well drilling (his grandfather was the founder). I told him my situation. He said Amtrol was bought by Worthington and their tank quality has fallen to shit. They used to be the industry standard but I guess around the time of my well job, this all went down. He said they don't last and this is about normal now.
He said don't even bother with an Amtrol replacement (unless they somehow give me a free one). There is a new company called Flex-Lite that does offer a quality product.
https://flexconind.com/product/flex-lite-series/
He even said some Amtrol engineers went over to work there. So that's pretty interesting information.
The plan now is see what, if anything, I can get from Amtrol. Otherwise, I said if I do a Flex-Lite tank, who could do that work? John said he could, under his current company (he left Lorenson to run his own company). So I have that option.
EDIT: response is the warranty was 7 years, so that puts us at around Jan 2022 for expiration. Perfect. Thanks for nothing.
I sent an e-mail to Amtrol warranty support to see if they can do anything for me. They asked for the serial number, which I provided. Then they asked for paperwork regarding the installation. I don't have this but I'm trying to obtain it.
As part of that, I called the guy who did the well drilling and upgraded the tank at my request (I paid $250 extra for this). He said he is no longer affiliated with DS Lorenson well drilling (his grandfather was the founder). I told him my situation. He said Amtrol was bought by Worthington and their tank quality has fallen to shit. They used to be the industry standard but I guess around the time of my well job, this all went down. He said they don't last and this is about normal now.
He said don't even bother with an Amtrol replacement (unless they somehow give me a free one). There is a new company called Flex-Lite that does offer a quality product.
https://flexconind.com/product/flex-lite-series/
He even said some Amtrol engineers went over to work there. So that's pretty interesting information.
The plan now is see what, if anything, I can get from Amtrol. Otherwise, I said if I do a Flex-Lite tank, who could do that work? John said he could, under his current company (he left Lorenson to run his own company). So I have that option.
EDIT: response is the warranty was 7 years, so that puts us at around Jan 2022 for expiration. Perfect. Thanks for nothing.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
Good news: Amtrol agreed to warranty my tank. I need to work with a distributor. Also, I may just hire the guy who installed the well originally...
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
1 month later, Amtrol gave Plumber's Supply the run around but finally agreed to honor what they stated they would a month ago.
I should be able to pick up the new tank tomorrow for a "small" document fee of $135, IIRC.
I should be able to pick up the new tank tomorrow for a "small" document fee of $135, IIRC.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
Finally achieved this milestone. Now I need to investigate installation options that don't result in being without water for days. Or pay someone.
It barely fit but I was able to close the hatch. Obviously I could have folded down the rear seats but it wasn't necessary.
They were able to knock the paperwork fee down to $70.
It barely fit but I was able to close the hatch. Obviously I could have folded down the rear seats but it wasn't necessary.
They were able to knock the paperwork fee down to $70.
Re: Well pump pressure experiment
Looks like the copper pipe coming out from my old tank is 1" (measures 1.125" outer diameter).
New tank came with a nice stainless pipe. It is quite large. The manual says the threads are 1-1/4" NPTF. It threads into the elbow at the bottom of the tank.
So the question now is how best to mate this with my plumbing. I wish to retain the original 1" copper pipe but I can definitely cut it. So the idea is, figure out some kind of union situation to thread the stainless into the existing copper pipe. I don't even know if this is possible. My original thought was to cut the copper in the right spot, unthread the pipe from the tank elbow, screw into the new elbow and use a Shark Bite to mate them. Not super professional but seems like it might be easy enough.
If I wanted to use the stainless pipe that comes with the new tank, I need to figure out a union and it seems like it would have to be a compression joint. Not sure if that's even really the right thing, a good idea, or allowed.
New tank came with a nice stainless pipe. It is quite large. The manual says the threads are 1-1/4" NPTF. It threads into the elbow at the bottom of the tank.
So the question now is how best to mate this with my plumbing. I wish to retain the original 1" copper pipe but I can definitely cut it. So the idea is, figure out some kind of union situation to thread the stainless into the existing copper pipe. I don't even know if this is possible. My original thought was to cut the copper in the right spot, unthread the pipe from the tank elbow, screw into the new elbow and use a Shark Bite to mate them. Not super professional but seems like it might be easy enough.
If I wanted to use the stainless pipe that comes with the new tank, I need to figure out a union and it seems like it would have to be a compression joint. Not sure if that's even really the right thing, a good idea, or allowed.