https://jalopnik.com/the-2019-toyota-su ... 1829563030
That doesn't mean it won't have good performance but come on Toyota. This is incredibly lame, given their vast resources and overall automotive market position.
I hate the new NSX, too, as an overly technology laden car that is overpriced, and actually has some partial EV issues as far as running out of battery to power the hybrid motors continuously. But at least it's Honda! And Honda is small!!
Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
To me, the Supra was a special kind of car. It was way over engineered to handle much more power than it was configured with stock, which I think is really cool. Why bother bringing back the nameplate to just cover a Z4 nameplate? Really makes no sense to me and ruins any possible specialness that this could possibly offer. For a car company, how beneficial is it to have the coolest car that you offer need to be made by someone else? Seems like Toyota should have been able to figure out how to engineer a real next gen Supra, not have to pay BMW to do it for them. This should be embarrassing.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
The lame parade continues.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-to ... CC6C157D86
You know who this car is actually meant for...this is the more adult version of the underpowered BRZ/FRS. Like a 350Z competitor. A V6 Camaro competitor....though they claimed 0-60 in 4.1. Not sure how 3,400 lbs and 335 hp does that but we'll see.
The good news is, the price is fairly reasonable given the market segment. $50,920. However, I have absolutely no clue why on earth anyone would spent $50k on this when they could have a Camaro SS which will just embarrass this thing in every possible way. And given the 5,000 rpm HP peak on the Supra/Z4, the LT1 will probably be more satisfying to wind out, too. Failblog!!
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-to ... CC6C157D86
Oh my god. It is even more lame than I thought!! 335hp and an automatic??The European-market 2019 BMW Z4 and global-market 2020 Toyota Supra share the same BMW B5830M1 3.0-liter DOHC 24-valve twin-scroll single-turbo inline-six. It's a proper straight-six tribute to the five previous Supras (six if you include the 2000GT) and a perfect successor. This aluminum engine makes 335 horsepower at 5,000 rpm and 369 lb-ft of torque at 1,600 rpm. Due to emissions regulations in Europe (started in September 2018), this version of the B58 engine includes soot-scrubbing gasoline particulate filters that result in higher exhaust backpressure and lower horsepower production.
There are no such particulate regulations (yet) in the U.S., so our free-breathing Z4 M40i will get the 382-hp B5830O1 version of the engine, which makes the same 369 lb-ft of torque. Unfortunately, our in-market Supra retains the EU filters and the resulting output. They both share the same ZF 8HP eight-speed automatic transmission with manual shift capability, spinning an electronically controlled clutch-pack differential between the rear wheels. There will be no manual transmission, at least initially. Although both cars feature a launch-control mode, the engine control unit, transmission, and differential are tuned to each manufacturer's desires.
You know who this car is actually meant for...this is the more adult version of the underpowered BRZ/FRS. Like a 350Z competitor. A V6 Camaro competitor....though they claimed 0-60 in 4.1. Not sure how 3,400 lbs and 335 hp does that but we'll see.
The good news is, the price is fairly reasonable given the market segment. $50,920. However, I have absolutely no clue why on earth anyone would spent $50k on this when they could have a Camaro SS which will just embarrass this thing in every possible way. And given the 5,000 rpm HP peak on the Supra/Z4, the LT1 will probably be more satisfying to wind out, too. Failblog!!
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
The answer was obvious. It is underrated.kevm14 wrote:You know who this car is actually meant for...this is the more adult version of the underpowered BRZ/FRS. Like a 350Z competitor. A V6 Camaro competitor....though they claimed 0-60 in 4.1. Not sure how 3,400 lbs and 335 hp does that but we'll see.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-to ... AEB54D3023
That is in the same ballpark as the LS6 in my CTS-V (which will probably still be running when that BMW inline 6 quits or needs major work). And sure, you could say my CTS-V was $50k back in 2005 and $50k now is actually a lot less money for the same power and certainly better performance. Motor Trend got 12.5 seconds at 111.2 mph. But that's only if you take it in a vacuum - I don't think it represents 15 years of performance development by any stretch. There are much better performance buys out there even if this is underrated, from GM alone. In fact that is just a few ticks better (due to launch) than cars like Bob's V-sport. It is slower than the current Camaro SS or CTS-V2 (not so much by ET but trap), and really just a touch faster than even the gen 5 1LE. And everything I just mentioned can be had for like $25-30k, right now.332 hp and 387 lb-ft to the rear wheels
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
The real question is, did you like the old Supra?
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
I understand it was a pretty big deal but as with most things, when the rest of the world breathlessly expounds their undying loyalty to something, that usually drives up the cost (as opposed to individual people like me who don't represent most people and thus do not drive market prices of anything). I'd put the Supra in the same category as an Integra Type-R. It was significant at the time. The current market way overvalues the car. If it was some kind of depreciated 90s performance car, you bet I would be singing its praises.
Not sure why you are asking in the context of the new Supra. I say that because I don't think my opinion of the old Supra really impacts the new one. Two scenarios are possible:
- Person A loved the old Supra. New Supra is a huge letdown, 25 years later. Not to mention the whole BMW thing.
- Person B did not like the old Supra. New Supra is not a good performance value. Person B knew old Supra nameplate was worth something and does not understand how the new car really represents what the car should be.
Then you could have Person C who loved the old Supra and likes this new car, but for a different reason. And Person D who did not like the old Supra but loves the new one? That person may be hard to find...
I am person B. I think many people are person A. I think some people are person C.
Anyway I don't think the old Supra really influences how they will perceive the new one - objectively it is not the same thing. The new one is barely faster than the old one, 25 years later.
Not sure why you are asking in the context of the new Supra. I say that because I don't think my opinion of the old Supra really impacts the new one. Two scenarios are possible:
- Person A loved the old Supra. New Supra is a huge letdown, 25 years later. Not to mention the whole BMW thing.
- Person B did not like the old Supra. New Supra is not a good performance value. Person B knew old Supra nameplate was worth something and does not understand how the new car really represents what the car should be.
Then you could have Person C who loved the old Supra and likes this new car, but for a different reason. And Person D who did not like the old Supra but loves the new one? That person may be hard to find...
I am person B. I think many people are person A. I think some people are person C.
Anyway I don't think the old Supra really influences how they will perceive the new one - objectively it is not the same thing. The new one is barely faster than the old one, 25 years later.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Fun fact, the old 4th generation Supra had the same overly-complex door hinge thing the Lexus SC has.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
I am person A/B. I'm a big fan of the old Supras (all generations). The new one underwhelms because its a BMW and also because it doesn't even represent the same type of top-tier performance/features the old ones offered at the time. And by top-tier, I mean top-tier from Toyota.
Even the 1st generation Supra had:
- Upgraded suspension/brakes over the base Celica (4-wheel disc was standard on the Supra)
- Modified to support the larger inline 6 (compared to the 4 cyl found in the Celica)
- All sorts of power features available
The only thing the 5th generation Supra has is:
- The name Supra
- An inline 6 (but not a Toyota inline 6)
Even the 1st generation Supra had:
- Upgraded suspension/brakes over the base Celica (4-wheel disc was standard on the Supra)
- Modified to support the larger inline 6 (compared to the 4 cyl found in the Celica)
- All sorts of power features available
The only thing the 5th generation Supra has is:
- The name Supra
- An inline 6 (but not a Toyota inline 6)
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
I'd like to drive a gen 4 Supra TT but it's not like I'll end up with one so it doesn't really matter.
Let me put it in terms of GM. Say the C4 ZR-1 was worth like $100k. That would completely change how i feel about the car. But they are totally attainable. I like cars that are attainable. Obtainable?
Anyway I like underdogs. Cars the market undervalues but have some characteristics that may surprise people. That's pretty much why I like a lot of GM stuff in a nutshell.
The other point is I look at the Supra via fully objective characteristics. It's significance at the time does not really do anything for me, because I wasn't a rabid fan at the time so there is no feeling of being 16 again to relive. Unlike, say, the Impala SS. Yes I know I am different.
Let me put it in terms of GM. Say the C4 ZR-1 was worth like $100k. That would completely change how i feel about the car. But they are totally attainable. I like cars that are attainable. Obtainable?
Anyway I like underdogs. Cars the market undervalues but have some characteristics that may surprise people. That's pretty much why I like a lot of GM stuff in a nutshell.
The other point is I look at the Supra via fully objective characteristics. It's significance at the time does not really do anything for me, because I wasn't a rabid fan at the time so there is no feeling of being 16 again to relive. Unlike, say, the Impala SS. Yes I know I am different.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Read - Fun fact, the old 4th generation Supra had the same overly-complex door hinge thing the Fupra has.Fun fact, the old 4th generation Supra had the same overly-complex door hinge thing the Lexus SC has.
Didn't see that coming...Let me put it in terms of GM.