Ha!bill25 wrote:Didn't see that coming...Let me put it in terms of GM.
Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
At the time the 4th gen Supra debuted, I was a big fan of the FD RX-7, mainly because this was the true driver's car among all of the Japanese greats of the era (Supra, 300ZX, 3000GT). If the new Supra came with a manual, I could see it filling that driver's car niche.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
I'm going to need more data before I believe that the BMW Supra is the spiritual successor to the FD RX-7. However, it might be the closest thing currently available. Just not sure if that makes it a spiritual successor. Then again, those are my words - maybe that's not what you were saying.
Overall my assessment of the car is still that it is a grown up, higher performance alternative to the 86.
It basically lands in entry level Corvette pricing territory with almost no room for ADM BS. I would like to see a base C7 (well, Z51 I guess) compared to a Supra.
Overall my assessment of the car is still that it is a grown up, higher performance alternative to the 86.
It basically lands in entry level Corvette pricing territory with almost no room for ADM BS. I would like to see a base C7 (well, Z51 I guess) compared to a Supra.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
https://www.motortrend.com/news/this-mo ... C981EB35C8
10.96 @ 125. That is a huge improvement from 12.5 @ 111. To achieve this, it is stated that the mods were as follows:
Problem with this is, a Z51 C8 does damn near the same thing bone stock and it may be a simple matter of some drag radials to run a 10.9 like this Supra did, considering it will already be in the 11.3 range on stock tires.
Again I will remind the reader that 12.5 @ 111 is really not much faster than the Mark IV Supra 25 years ago (and maybe a touch slower than my favorite benchmark, the C5 Z06 which is over 15 years old now)...everything else since then has shaved multiple seconds off their 1/4 mile ETs as well as added like 10-20 mph of trap speed.
10.96 @ 125. That is a huge improvement from 12.5 @ 111. To achieve this, it is stated that the mods were as follows:
I still don't see how 14 mph of trap was gained given only 56 extra hp and a 100 lb weight reduction. I would have probably put it at a 7 mph trap speed improvement. Sticky tires also help get the ET down but not sure that explains the trap.Let's make it abundantly clear: This is not a stock Supra. Real Street's modifications so far are a stage 2 ECU tune and downpipe; the turbo itself is stock but the engine slurped race fuel. So built, the inline-six makes 388 hp and 477 lb-ft of torque at the wheels—a whopping increase over the 332 hp and 387 lb-ft we measured on the dyno. For the run it was shod in a pair of super-sticky Hoosier radial tires, and the passenger seat and exhaust were removed to shave about 100 pounds.
Problem with this is, a Z51 C8 does damn near the same thing bone stock and it may be a simple matter of some drag radials to run a 10.9 like this Supra did, considering it will already be in the 11.3 range on stock tires.
Again I will remind the reader that 12.5 @ 111 is really not much faster than the Mark IV Supra 25 years ago (and maybe a touch slower than my favorite benchmark, the C5 Z06 which is over 15 years old now)...everything else since then has shaved multiple seconds off their 1/4 mile ETs as well as added like 10-20 mph of trap speed.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
I'm not supra (hahaha) excited about this car, but maybe, just maybe... this is just the base version and Toyota is planning a faster version, with a twin turbo Toyota engine, with upgraded Toyota suspension... and brakes??? That would be cool.
Sorry, when Ford and Mazda shared the compact truck, and the compact economy sports car, and Toyota and Chevy shared the economy compact car that was all fine, because they were working together to bring cheap economy vehicles to the buyers and everyone won. I can't get passed paying someone else to engineer your halo car though. There is just something weird about that. There is supposed to be something unique to your brand that is showcased in your halo car.
Sorry, when Ford and Mazda shared the compact truck, and the compact economy sports car, and Toyota and Chevy shared the economy compact car that was all fine, because they were working together to bring cheap economy vehicles to the buyers and everyone won. I can't get passed paying someone else to engineer your halo car though. There is just something weird about that. There is supposed to be something unique to your brand that is showcased in your halo car.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Seems to me that small guys like Honda or Mazda would have the resources to make their own Supra so still not sure why Toyota couldn't be bothered.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
Side note: if a shortage of interesting and disruptive cars is an issue (i.e. bring back the feeling of an 80s Buick GN or that 90s Mark IV Supra), then I would certainly direct you to the C8. Probably the most interesting, quasi-affordable car in a while. I would say the Cadillac V series was interesting and disruptive, too (as a more affordable American alternative to the German options, which was a novelty for sure regardless of what people who want comfort only have to say), over its history with the V3 somehow being the least interesting to the general market even though it is the best objective creation yet.
To some extent, the resurgence of the pony car as a sports car has been disruptive, particularly with the Gen 6 Camaro (Camaro SS vs M4 comes to mind). Maybe even the Hellcat, at least initially. The new Supra does not rank in any of this in my opinion.
To some extent, the resurgence of the pony car as a sports car has been disruptive, particularly with the Gen 6 Camaro (Camaro SS vs M4 comes to mind). Maybe even the Hellcat, at least initially. The new Supra does not rank in any of this in my opinion.
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
By the way...$60k base C8 translates to only $35k in 1995. According to research a 1995 Supra Twin Turbo was $48,700. Inflation adjusted, that is a difference of $22k.
If we consider the $65k Z51, then that is still only $38,600 in 1995 dollars which is still $17k less adjusted for inflation. And for reference, the difference between a Camaro SS and a Camaro ZL1 is about $20k in today's dollars (obviously). In case $20k suddenly becomes a small difference...but I digress.
Anyway I stand by my examples. We already have factory engines well into the 700 hp range and beyond now. So simply adding a turbo or adding direct injection or any of that stuff is no longer groundbreaking. Putting together a car like the C8, at those prices, IS groundbreaking. And I'd argue it is just as significant and impressive as it must have been to read about the Buick GN in the mid-80s. Ditto all the positive press for the Alpha platform Camaros.
By the same token I cannot give the Challenger credit for simply existing. That is a low bar (and somewhat defensible given today's corporate turbo 4 crossover culture).
If we consider the $65k Z51, then that is still only $38,600 in 1995 dollars which is still $17k less adjusted for inflation. And for reference, the difference between a Camaro SS and a Camaro ZL1 is about $20k in today's dollars (obviously). In case $20k suddenly becomes a small difference...but I digress.
Anyway I stand by my examples. We already have factory engines well into the 700 hp range and beyond now. So simply adding a turbo or adding direct injection or any of that stuff is no longer groundbreaking. Putting together a car like the C8, at those prices, IS groundbreaking. And I'd argue it is just as significant and impressive as it must have been to read about the Buick GN in the mid-80s. Ditto all the positive press for the Alpha platform Camaros.
By the same token I cannot give the Challenger credit for simply existing. That is a low bar (and somewhat defensible given today's corporate turbo 4 crossover culture).
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
I haven't been able to muster up the interest to read this but posting anyway.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/ ... 94FE47E1C0
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/ ... 94FE47E1C0
Re: Toyota phoned it in with the new Supra
https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota- ... CBFBF61258
Toyota GR Supra vs. BMW M2 Competition: Bimmer Track Battle
Two BMWs, one Randy Pobst
At least people aren't pretending. That's somewhat of a relief.It was a big joke—albeit not a very original one—at Best Driver's Car 2019 that we had three BMWs present: the BMW M850i, the BMW M2 Competition, and the Toyota GR Supra Launch Edition. The new Toyota Supra may be built on the same line (and with most of the same parts) as the new BMW Z4, but when it came to tuning and calibration, it was Toyota that had the final sign-off, not BMW. But with a similarly spec'd M-modified BMW 2 Series on hand, we wondered who builds the better BMW—BMW, or Toyota? So, we chucked the keys to Randy Pobst and set him loose on WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca to find out which was quickest.
The M2 Comp also gets upgraded brakes, carbon-fiber bracing, and aluminum axles. The end result is one of the nicest M cars we've driven in a long time. By the numbers, it'll hustle from 0 to 60 mph in 4.0 seconds, through the quarter mile in 12.4 seconds at 114.7 mph, and lap our figure eight in 24.1 seconds at 0.82 g average.
The Supra does well given the power differential and being lighter doesn't hurt.Under our Supra Launch Edition's voluptuous hood sits a BMW-sourced 3.0-liter turbocharged I-6 making 335 hp and 365 lb-ft of torque. It drives the rear wheels through a quick-shifting eight-speed automatic gearbox. Thanks to its light curb weight—the Supra, at around 3,400 pounds, weighs about 200 pounds less than the M2—the Toyota is quick on its feet. It accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds, through the quarter mile in 12.5 seconds at 111.2 mph, and it laps our figure eight in 24.0 seconds at 0.83 g.
Ugh. Guess I'll have to wait until I can do that...So, which is quicker around Laguna Seca? Watch to find out.