https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... source=msn
I'd argue not going after the upper middle class because unlike the top 0.1%, you can actually work to obtain it. And I fail to see how the upper middle class (the top 20%) is keeping down the bottom 80%. I mean, if my parents worked hard and that afforded me more advantages, why am I supposed to apologize for that? And what if my parents did NOT afford me every advantage, and I still pulled it off, shouldn't I get to reap those rewards? With all of the affirmative action stuff we've had for a couple decades, are people still arguing that a white person's success is literally at the expense of a minority's? That is the most liberal-guilt-ridden thing I've seen in a while.
I see articles like this and I just immediately jump to thinking "socialism."
"The Hoarding of the American Dream"
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
Top comment:
I'm sure this qualifies as hate speech somewhere...Some good, some bad in this piece - I really have no objection to further limiting or phasing our the mortgage interest deduction, barring legacy admissions or encouraging more higher density development.
On the other hand, the author falls for the 'magic dirt' theory that location itself (as in nice suburbs) matters a great deal in terms of economic or educational opportunity. It doesn't - it's the people who live there and their behaviors and practices that make for success, and the hard truth is the upper middle class has this figured out and the bottom 20% does not. And, in a society in which one's brains matter more than ever in terms of earnings, the top 20% is going to be way, way ahead of those on the left hand of the bell curve, and moving people around or punitive tax policies will not change that.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
So, I should be penalized for living frugally throughout my working years and accumulating a good-sized retirement nest egg? I work with others who had an income similar to mine but chose to spend it on fancy clothes, vacations, meals, and cars and now will have very little retirement income above SS. I chose to drive economical cars for 15 or more years each, spent only what I had to on clothes, went on budget-friendly vacations, and seldom dined out. Like most socialist propaganda, the premise that we should "means test" SS for people who have paid in to the system as required punishes "good" life-long behavior and creates a huge incentive to find "off the record" income in retirement.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
The real problem is costs. Not salaries. If someone didn't need 100K plus to get ahead, there would be less of an issue. College 30 years ago was affordable, not an added mortgage payment. I don't want to hear the bullshit about art degrees either because look at what we put doctors through. It is insane. Add to that housing costs, daycare costs, car costs. Sure you need a lot of money just to make it. Everything is overinflated. Higher salaries just make these problems worse. Is it the same impact to the economy as adding 2 incomes to a household. House prices doubled when salaries did. So higher salaries on average will just raise costs more. The answer is to lower costs - houses and education being affordable instead of artificially inflated as examples would allow for people to make less and be more comfortable.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
I have spent quite a bit of time pondering this issue recently. I believe that the top 0.1% are really the ones hoarding all the wealth. When you look at the statistics, it's staggering how much of the total wealth is controlled by the top fraction of one percent. Also, the barriers to entry into this level of wealth are extremely high, even for someone like me who had a pretty good upper middle class upbringing.
I would argue that getting into the top 20% is still achievable with some hard work, although it still isn't that easy if you weren't born there, particularly with the rising costs of education, which is really the most certain way to reach the top 20%. Some people will point out the small business owner with a GED who managed to do it, but these people are the exception, not the norm. The top 20% is largely occupied by educated professionals.
One area where I do feel that the top 20% is to blame is dual high income couples. My wife and I would each qualify as top 20% earners individually. The fact that we share the same household means that effectively there is another household that is missing out on a top 20% income. Is one of going to stay home to give someone else a chance? Not likely, so I'm not sure what the solution is here.
I would argue that getting into the top 20% is still achievable with some hard work, although it still isn't that easy if you weren't born there, particularly with the rising costs of education, which is really the most certain way to reach the top 20%. Some people will point out the small business owner with a GED who managed to do it, but these people are the exception, not the norm. The top 20% is largely occupied by educated professionals.
One area where I do feel that the top 20% is to blame is dual high income couples. My wife and I would each qualify as top 20% earners individually. The fact that we share the same household means that effectively there is another household that is missing out on a top 20% income. Is one of going to stay home to give someone else a chance? Not likely, so I'm not sure what the solution is here.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
By my rough count, there are only 3 members of this forum in a similar situation. Maybe they can weigh in. Actually, I think they both have some kind of education related debt to pay down so maybe you are in the top 1% for purposes of my small forum.
The rest, like Bill said, are making decent money, but only as one income, to support a family, try to have a car hobby, etc. It is possible at least. If I had student loan debt like tons of people that graduated from WPI with in 2003, I'd actually be pretty miserable and unable to do just about anything that I have been able to do in the past 10 years. Forget all the car stuff, even though none of it was even frivolous. Forget the second house thing entirely.
The thing is, dual income people with dual loans aren't really in a better position than I am with a single income but little debt other than a couple of mortgages.
The rest, like Bill said, are making decent money, but only as one income, to support a family, try to have a car hobby, etc. It is possible at least. If I had student loan debt like tons of people that graduated from WPI with in 2003, I'd actually be pretty miserable and unable to do just about anything that I have been able to do in the past 10 years. Forget all the car stuff, even though none of it was even frivolous. Forget the second house thing entirely.
The thing is, dual income people with dual loans aren't really in a better position than I am with a single income but little debt other than a couple of mortgages.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
My education debt was fairly minimal relative to the value I have gotten from it: $0 for BSME at UMaine thanks to Colby tuition benefit and parental aid and roughly $30k that I paid out of pocket for my MBA (my company picked up roughly half of the total ~$60k). My wife's debt was nonexistent: no cost undergrad in China and she got a full scholarship to the Master's of Accounting program at Wake Forest. There's no doubt that it's easier to get ROI when your I is small. I'm still not sure if the MBA was worth it; however my last two positions have at least been "MBA preferred" type of jobs so I guess there is some value there. I never got that step change in pay after graduation that I think they try to use to lure you into the program, but I was able to get somewhere better after some time and effort.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
Small I and no debt is everything. And I do agree with Bill - the costs do seem to be the issue rather than salaries that aren't high enough. It was only 20 short years ago that a 6 figure household income was considered quite solid. And a 6 figure individual income...well, you may as well have been a millionaire.
But the point of the thread was, that article is a bunch of nonsense.
But the point of the thread was, that article is a bunch of nonsense.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
Oh I forgot to mention...zero undergrad and a few textbooks towards the end of my MSSE program is all I spent out of pocket. So I kind of have every advantage I could have had. I do have job security and obviously top notch benefits. And I can work 40 hour weeks if I want to. It so happens that I haven't for a year and a half, but I was paid for every extra hour.
In the end, I don't feel bad for myself. I feel lucky because most people are doing worse.
In the end, I don't feel bad for myself. I feel lucky because most people are doing worse.
Re: "The Hoarding of the American Dream"
I am definitely envious of your work/life balance and the fact that you get paid for hours over 40. I feel like I am stuck with doing at least an hour of work every night at home, including Sunday nights (because of Asia).