Gran Turismo

Non-repair car talk
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Gran Turismo

Post by bill25 »

Is awesome.

"The Gran Turismo video game series has been one of the most popular over its lifetime, appealing to an audience ranging from casual gamers to fans of realistic PC racing sims."
The appeal of the Gran Turismo series is due significantly to its graphics, a large number of licensed vehicles, attention to vehicle detail, accurate driving physics emulation, and the ability to tune performance. Handling of the vehicles is modeled on real-life driving impressions, tuning is based on principles of physics, and the sound of the vehicle's engine is based on recordings of the actual vehicles. The game has been a flagship for the PlayStation console's graphics capabilities, and is often used to demonstrate the system's potential.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Turismo_(series)


But what does a Driving Pro say about it???
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/raci ... rburgring/
Professional racing driver and instructor Denis Malevanyi completed a blisteringly quick lap of the Nurburgring in Gran Turismo 5 using a BMW M3 E92, then suited up and hopped into a real-life E92 to complete the same lap on the actual track. Malevanyi then stitched both laps together in video-editing software to compare his virtual and real performances.

Having watched the footage, what stands out most is how realistic Gran Turismo 5 is. Every bend and camber of the real Nordschleife (the Nurburgring's north circuit) is mirrored to perfection, and even the virtual car matches its physical counterpart down to the smallest detail.
"
kevm14
Posts: 16018
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by kevm14 »

https://www.quora.com/How-does-iRacing- ... an-Turismo

Sorry, I was right. GT may be heaps of fun and may very well be the most realistic simulator experience available on a console. I never disagreed with any of that. I even agreed that GT's main thing is doing high fidelity copies of real cars, as far as interior, exterior, sound, and the way they drive. These PC racing simulators don't even attempt to do that. So, where I suspected (and claimed with no evidence) it wouldn't stand up to is what is available on a PC, in terms of simulation/physics and that kind of stuff. Looks like I was right. Which is comforting.

Without getting into the specifics (because I didn't do the research), I basically summarized the general tone of this response. You shouldn't have said Gran Turismo was "the best, most realistic driving simulator available anywhere." That's what I disagreed with. You should have said "it's fun, you should try it."

Read on if you still want to argue about this.
This is a pretty broad question, and a little akin to asking how an apple compares to lettuce and spinach. iRacing's direct competitors are simulations like rFactor and NetKar. This is kind of like asking how Mario Kart compares to Forza. But here goes:

Forza and GT are easily-approachable console-based racing entertainment games. They allow for the casual person to pick up a d-pad and go racing within moments, and probably win their first race. Both games readily sacrifice realism and accuracy in order to achieve maximum immersion and enjoyment.

iRacing is a PC-based racing simulation service. Though a d-pad controller can be used, it's not recommended; a steering wheel (such as a Logitech G27, Thrustmaster T500RS, or Fanatec CSR) with separate pedals is essentially a requirement. iRacing's overriding priorities are realism and accuracy.

All three advertise their accuracy with track modeling. Both Forza and Gran Turismo visit a track, walk it with a GPS, take thousands of reference pictures, and can often finish scanning a standard track within a day, or even half of a day; they claim accuracy in all three dimensions to an inch. iRacing takes several days to use their laser-scanning equipment to measure all three dimensions to the millimeter. (Laguna Seca never never never felt right to me in Gran Turismo or Forza--one lap in iRacing and I was a convert.)

iRacing is a subscription-based model with some free content, and most available by purchase. With Forza and GT, you receive most of the content as part of the purchase, and then some extra content is available by purchase.

With iRacing, you can race only against other people. There is no competition against the computer. Your driving view is only in-cockpit (though there are essentially an unlimited number of views in replay).

But the biggest difference between the two is in the physics. If you aren't knowledgeable about vehicle dynamics or the difference between understeer and oversteer you can still easily succeed in Forza or GT, but in iRacing, you will probably find it more difficult.

If a car has a natural handling imbalance (like, say, the Skippy, and it's propensity for oversteer), you have to learn how to drive around it, or tune it out with the setup (while not adversely affecting the car over a race's distance), but the best iRacers understand why that imbalance exists and how to use it to their advantage. Forza or GT would design the car with less oversteer so that it's more easily driven by the masses.

iRacing is a realistic simulator, and is the one with the most professional racers in its ranks: I've seen Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Scott Speed, Shane van Gisbergen, Alex Gurney, and many others in races. Tony Stewart and Lewis Hamilton both used it extensively prior to their seat swap this year. There are literally thousands of amateur racers on iRacing that use it as a training tool.

Grand-Am, IndyCar, and V8 Supercars consider iRacing their official series. NASCAR sanctions it: yes, the NASCAR iRacing Drivers World Championship is an official NASCAR series. Ray Alfalla, the most recent winner, received  $10,000.00, a championship ring from NASCAR (the same style ring as Tony Stewart just got for his Sprint Cup championship), and his very own press conference.

Forza and Gran Turismo are great games, but they're just that: games. Their primary purpose is entertainment for as many as possible. They're easily approachable and entertaining for a very broad audience.

iRacing has a very steep and very long learning curve (just like racing in real life), and you have to set your own goals, but it has the most satisfying and entertaining racing I've ever encountered.
This is the other one from that question:
To add to Kevin Browne's good answer, the difference in iRacing and Gran Turismo and (I have never played Forza) is the racing.

If you have ever spent time on the weekend doing track days or High-Performance Driver Education, then you will feel right at home with iRacing.

Everything about iRacing is about the racing. You can't approach it anything like an arcade style driving game.

You get penalized for going off the track, wrecking, and especially, for hitting other drivers. The auto-clutch is speed penalized. In an actual race, tensions are pretty high. You want to go fast, but you can't wreck or hit other drivers, so, it adds a check and balance that I just don't see in something like Gran Turismo.

I own Gran Turismo 5 and like it. I have amassed a fleet of megahorsepower black cars, but... I really it feels more arcade to me, and the physics are decent, but don't really compare to iRacing I feel.

They just released a controversial new Tire model, but so far I seem to like it better, especially in regards to getting a wheel in grass or driving over a gator. With the old tire model you would just spin out. That was not realistic. Now assuming you are not too out of control or sideways you can run off a little bit or attack gators and it's fine. My favorite example is T5 at Road Atlanta. In real life you drive all over that gator as you run out and charge up the hill. It works correctly now.

Mostly though it's the respect factor which I find that makes iRacing so compelling. If you are outclassed by the other drivers (and the game is international, there are A LOT of really good drivers) you will defer to them and let them pass and not wreck them out. There are a lot of fights about people who act like fools and generally they don't last too long in the iRacing world.

The iRacing mindset does a great job of approximating the real driving experience in that way.

iRacing does not seem to look as good as GT5 or Forza, but the game play is beyond gripping. You will see the sun come up on numerous occasions.
kevm14
Posts: 16018
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by kevm14 »

Some good discussion here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comm ... _is_not_a/
I would personally think it depends on the developers intention. Was the game created with the best physics they could achieve? It’s a simulator (think rfactor, automobilista, project cars, etc). Was the game created with realistic physics but with compromises to improve accessibility? Simcade (Forza/GT). Was the game created to be fun to drive for all gamers and only simulates a car in the sense that it has four wheels and is capable of steering, accelerating and decelerating? Arcade (forza horizon, need for speed)
Simcade. That's rough.
Well this thread is a bit old but I'll still answer it as I feel the other comments dont really do justice. I mostly play AC and I must say that GT Sport is an excellent game but it does fall short on realism in these key areas: no tire deformation, no tire temperature, no brake temperature, no engine water/oil temp, no air temperature, no track temperature, and no wind.
I'm actually really irritated that you kept insisting it is definitely the best, most realistic racing simulator. Come on man, it's on a fucking PlayStation. It may be good but it cannot possibly be the best. And it's not. Sorry if I knew that without having to do the research. It's just obvious (to me) that it would be the case.
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by bill25 »

Read on if you still want to argue about this.
Where were these comments from?
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by bill25 »

It sounds like you just listened to people with the same opinion as you on the internet. I am interested to see what the actual differences are. The GPS thing was cool to hear. GT 5 is not the most up to date version either, which it looked like the comments were on. Accuracy of real tracks in all 3 dimensions to an inch is awesome.

Most of your comments rant about not showing damage to the car vice accuracy of the physics engine.
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by bill25 »

Come on man, it's on a fucking PlayStation.
I mean, Sony has basically made a custom Gaming computer designed specifically for gaming All the way to the chip level. I guess you can hand wave that away, but the GPUs in Playstations are actually leveraged in real industry computing. I am not sure why a computer custom made to play games is automatically worse at driving sims. Maybe computer racing sims sim more stuff you care about more accurately, but I would still give GT the big picture.
Though based on AMD's GCN architecture, there are several known differentiating factors between the PS4's GPU and current-gen PC graphics cards featuring first-gen GCN architecture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStati ... ifications
Adam
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by Adam »

What's the argument here? That consoles offer the best performance platform for running games?
bill25 wrote:
Come on man, it's on a fucking PlayStation.
I mean, Sony has basically made a custom Gaming computer designed specifically for gaming All the way to the chip level. I guess you can hand wave that away, but the GPUs in Playstations are actually leveraged in real industry computing. I am not sure why a computer custom made to play games is automatically worse at driving sims. Maybe computer racing sims sim more stuff you care about more accurately, but I would still give GT the big picture.
Though based on AMD's GCN architecture, there are several known differentiating factors between the PS4's GPU and current-gen PC graphics cards featuring first-gen GCN architecture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStati ... ifications
From that same article.
The graphics processing unit (GPU) is AMD's GPGPU-capable Radeon GCN architecture, consisting of 18 compute units (CUs) for a total of 1,152 cores (64 cores per CU), that produces a theoretical peak performance of 1.84 TFLOPS.[41] This processing power can be used for graphics, physics simulation, or a combination of the two, or any other tasks suited for general purpose compute. GPU is mostly based on the Bonaire architecture using GCN 1.1 technology.[42]
My nearly 3 year old GTX 960 has a theoretical peak performance of 2.308 TFLOPs. Also, I have two of them. And a CPU to do other stuff.
The current high-end Nvidia cards all sport theoretical peak performance over 10 TFLOPs.
I support the argument that the PS or XBOX S/W is more optimized for their H/W platform than a typical Windows game running DirectX-whatever (due to API overhead and other reasons), but the generic stuff in your Windows box can overcome that due to much higher raw performance levels. Granted, a GTX1080 costs more than a PS4 Pro, but it'd better for a 5x performance bump.

What are we arguing about again? That console games have more realistic lighting models in racing games than PC versions?
Adam
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by Adam »

Also, Gran Turismo is awesome. I've played hundreds of hours of GT2/3 and many hours of GT4 (even though I don't own it or a PS3).

I've also played many hours of various Forza games.
Adam
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by Adam »

GT is also the reason I knew what a Nissan Skyline was before the Fast and Furious-whatever made it popular.
bill25
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Gran Turismo

Post by bill25 »

The argument started with Kevin totally dismissing that Gran Turismo could be a good racing simulator compared to computer racing sims.
He then cited some obscure racing game on the computer with horrible graphics and like 20 cars.

Then he totally disregarded the PlayStation as something that could ever support a good racing sim in the first place.
Improvements in GPU 16-bit variable float calculations derived from the newer AMD Vega architecture result in the PS4 Pro having a theoretical half precision floating point performance of 8.39 TeraFLOPs
Sounds pretty good for $450

- edit - The PS4 Pro is $399.99


This goes more into the engineering that goes into this platform:
Though based on AMD's GCN architecture, there are several known differentiating factors between the PS4's GPU and current-gen PC graphics cards featuring first-gen GCN architecture:
An additional dedicated 20 GB/s bus that bypasses L1 and L2 GPU cache for direct system memory access, reducing synchronisation challenges when performing fine-grain GPGPU compute tasks.
L2 cache support for simultaneous graphical and asynchronous compute tasks through the addition of a 'volatile' bit tag, providing control over cache invalidation, reducing the impact of simultaneous graphical and general purpose compute operations.
An upgrade from 2 to 64 sources for compute commands, improving compute parallelism and execution priority control. This enables finer-grain control over load-balancing of compute commands including superior game-engine integration

This isn't a Super Nintendo trying to compete with a computer, it is a specialized gaming computer. Yes, you can definitely build a better computer for more money, but these are pretty serious machines.

That is really all I was saying. And that there are far more people working on Gran Turismo than a niche Super Computer Racing Sim. They go through pretty extreme lengths to sim the experience including using recorded exhaust notes of the cars. The computer game has engine temp, and that totally trumps everything Gran Turismo is doing?

Kevin was saying it is a PlayStation game and automatically isn't a real sim and the PlayStation couldn't handle a real racing sim anyway.

Fact is, Gran Turismo 6 was too real and they needed an arcade mode to make up for people whining about cars not handling perfectly.

More info about working with suspension companies to perfect the model
https://gamingbolt.com/gran-turismo-6-w ... ing-engine
Last edited by bill25 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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