2019 Camaro

[kevm14]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/2019-chevy-c ... 24472.html

Also a new 1LE trim on the 2.0T. That thing must weigh like 3,2xx.

[kevm14]

The hyperbolic reactions are exhausting to read and listen to. If you look at the Yahoo link, it compares different angles of the 2018 vs 2019.

First thing's first: this is not a major redesign. It is a refresh to the current gen 6. Most comparisons of the front don't look dramatically different to me and I absolutely do not buy someone saying "the Gen 6 is great, this update is the worst thing I've ever seen." That's just a ludicrous statement designed to attract attention and create drama for no reason.

Also, the brought back the round tail lights. I think I like that better. Though, as with the gen 5, none of these refresh differences within generations would cause me to select one over the other. As usual for cars, I'd buy on price, condition and drivability characteristics between the trims/years.

But I've been very clear where exterior design falls in the scope of what is important to me on cars. It's no different than me arguing that the driving experience is totally different between the Chevy SS and Dodge Charger. It is, if you are focused/interested in chassis stuff. But if the general requirement is "give me a big car that looks like a muscle car and has a torquey V8" then those differences are less important. So in the end we just argue that one person's priority is more important than another's. Which is pretty stupid. My beef, however, is that MY priorities are generally measurable or at least somewhat quantifiable. There is nothing objective about styling. You can't measure styling. If GM's goal is to sell more Camaros (I assume it is), then they must expect this 2019 refresh to help boost gen 6 sales. Maybe they bet wrong. I don't know.

[bill25]

I like the return to the double circle tail lights although, I liked the Gen 6 tail lights much better than the refreshed Gen 5 rectangles.

I really really don't like the new fronts on these restyles. The black bumper with the chevy badge in the middle is bad (blue SS car). The new all grille front is also really bad (silver convertible), and I am not excited about the headlights going into the middle grill.

I don't think this helps the look.

[kevm14]

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrole ... B5C5D8BC1E

When not side by side I don't really even see like huge differences. It looks like an updated gen 6 because that is what it is.

Interested in SS performance with the 10 speed auto.

[kevm14]

So Bob rented a 19 2SS with 10A. I'm sure he will post in the rental thread but I'm putting this here, too.

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The word "hideous" to describe the 19 refresh seems like a gross overexaggeration. In fact, I think this looks pretty good. The bent license plate isn't adding anything though...

[kevm14]

For what it's worth, Camaro sales hit a peak in the 2012 calendar year (particularly, Feb 2012), declined to a local low for the 2013 model year, and more or less held that through the 2016 model year at around an 80k/yr volume, which also is pretty close to 2011. Basically 2010 and 2012 were peak years for some reason. 2010 probably due to first year craze and 2012 because of the ZL1 (hard to say whether the ZL1 itself or the mere existence of the ZL1 in the showroom made the difference but it certainly helped boost 2012). I'd say the 1LE and Z/28 had less sales impact, but probably did help keep gen 5 sales fairly steady instead of their normal generational decline.

For 2017 model year, they lost about 10k sales and for 2018 model year another 10k. 2019 model year is looking to continue that loss, possibly even steeper. But there are factors far beyond the 19 refresh driving stuff here.

I used data from May through April of the next year to denote a model year. Not 100% accurate but much better than calendar year. Rationale is that somewhere in May 2009 the 2010 Camaro sold in numbers. Which is why I used May for the start of all model years.

[bill25]

For 2017 model year, they lost about 10k sales and for 2018 model year another 10k. 2019 model year is looking to continue that loss, possibly even steeper. But there are factors far beyond the 19 refresh driving stuff here.

There are many factors, but when performance is better in every way, and sales decrease because the refresh is ugly, it could be because it is ugly. LOL.

The top of that car, above the ugly bumper looks almost like a charger and below it looks like some ugly black plastic with silver fangs or something (specifically the head on pic). The gen 6 isn't bad, but this refresh makes it look stupid. The back is ok but white/clear tail lights??? I don't see anything in this refresh that is actually better. They would have been better off leaving the it without the refresh.


I feel the same about the gen 5. I am not a big fan of the updated exterior. The big difference in the gen 5 is the interior actually did get better. Luckily it got better in 2013, right before the exterior updates.

[kevm14]

For 2017 model year, they lost about 10k sales and for 2018 model year another 10k. 2019 model year is looking to continue that loss, possibly even steeper. But there are factors far beyond the 19 refresh driving stuff here.

There are many factors, but when performance is better in every way, and sales decrease because the refresh is ugly, it could be because it is ugly. LOL.

I mean it could be but sales were flat in 2016 AFTER a body style change, and then declined 10k/yr in 2017 and 2018 BEFORE the refresh.

The top of that car, above the ugly bumper looks almost like a charger and below it looks like some ugly black plastic with silver fangs or something (specifically the head on pic). The gen 6 isn't bad, but this refresh makes it look stupid. The back is ok but white/clear tail lights??? I don't see anything in this refresh that is actually better. They would have been better off leaving the it without the refresh.

Yeah I dunno. As a more casual observer, I have far less strong opinions about it. It's been a long time since I looked at a car's styling so closely as to be critical of every little piece of plastic. If the car sucked to drive and didn't perform I really wouldn't care at all. But since it is good, it is hard to think of a scenario where I would actively and completely rule a model year out due only to styling (doesn't mean I wouldn't have a preference of course). I've said it before but if I ever come back around to having a true dream car, maybe I'll change my opinion. I just don't have one.

Up until these ridiculous "how can you not think that is ugly" debates, it was less stressful to stay in the quantitative realm. The Mustang has improved but in general I still think the Camaro drives better. That is backed up by a mountain of evidence, much of it measurable. So those discussions are easy to have from my perspective. On the contrary, I don't really care at all about a debate where someone tries to argue that the Mustang is better looking (debatable), therefore is the better car to buy (you completely lost me). Have that discussion with someone else. Buying the car that more people think looks good (who cares), or otherwise has approval (who cares), is a pointless popularity contest that, again, I thought ended in high school. Seriously. Trying to gain consensus through debate about something so subjective seems so incredibly pointless. Even the "ugliest" of trims and model years for EVERY CAR EVER MADE has sold in numbers. So obviously not everyone agrees, ever.

That doesn't mean I don't have opinions about styling but they don't weigh that heavily on my buying preferences, especially not to the point where styling characteristics will make or break whether I would consider that vehicle. It's just not a thing for me. Civic Type R is a good example. I do not find it attractive (and by the way, some people clearly DO - that must mean their vision is damaged right?). But that doesn't matter. I support that car over its competition for technical and measurable reasons, and if I had the cash and desire/need for it, I would buy one. It's that simple. Good cars are good cars.

You know what this reminds me of? Quora had some stuff on it a while back. It's like growing up in a blue state with your Democratic family and friends, going to a liberal college, and then meeting your first conservative in public and being completely baffled - how could anyone think this way? Surely something is wrong with them. No, it's because you grew up and live in a bubble and didn't realize it - in that case fully half of the country disagrees with you, despite your entire world view being based on a single side of the argument. Opposing opinions are not just possible, but defensible and even logical.

[kevm14]

I was thinking about this on my walk today. And it goes back to my dream car comment. You are so invested in the gen 5 being your ideal car (you literally have wanted one going on like 10 years now) that everything about it has to be right, and reflect the fact that you are that invested in the car. I see a minor detail that is relatively unoffensive, you see something that you don't like and would not own one because in your view it reflects on you, since you have put all of your emotions into THAT car being THE car. A more casual purchase you probably have a wider bandwidth for. So while I get it, I still think that is more a you-issue than an issue that I somehow have bad eyes or bad taste.

[bill25]

I don't really care at all about a debate where someone tries to argue that the Mustang is better looking (debatable), therefore is the better car to buy (you completely lost me). Have that discussion with someone else.

I never said any of that. I mean, it sounds like the Mustang is getting better performance wise, and looks like a Mustang for the most part. I am not saying I would want a Mustang because Ford did a better job making a Mustang looking Mustang than Chevy did making a Camaro looking Camaro. I just wish I didn't feel like Chevy was on the wrong track with the Camaro aesthetic.

Buying the car that more people think looks good (who cares), or otherwise has approval (who cares), is a pointless popularity contest that, again, I thought ended in high school. Seriously.

I don't care what other people think about it, I think it is ugly. I was referring to other opinions just to say I wasn't the only one on the planet that thought the refresh was in the wrong direction.

Trying to gain consensus through debate about something so subjective seems so incredibly pointless. Even the "ugliest" of trims and model years for EVERY CAR EVER MADE has sold in numbers. So obviously not everyone agrees, ever.

A lot of people buy stuff as an appliance and don't care what it looks like. I mean people bought the Aztek. That doesn't mean it looked good.


Basically, I am a Camaro fan, and if they make it ugly, I think that sucks. That doesn't seem like it would be difficult to understand. And yeah, details matter. Maybe not on an econobox appliance, but for something you want to get into, I think it is normal to care about details. That is what keeps the aftermarket alive. People want to customize to their preferences.