Sleepers

[bill25]

Right, which is about as much as the gen 5 Camaro. The gen 5 Camaro is still over 20K. If one of these is 2K, and you need an engine, transmission and rear end, that should still be under 10K and you would potentially have a better rear than what came with the Gen1V, and would be ready for the turbo. Granted it is a lot of work. A lot of people on forums are saying to start with a Gen1V. That probably isn't the worst idea, if you can find one really cheap. Then you would just swap the motor and add a turbo. Probably nothing else really to do.

[bill25]

Interesting perspective from someone that completed this build:

I'd like to cover a few criticims of this project. First and foremost, for those who thought it would never happen or it was impossible, I obviously proved you wrong. Second, many people say it is impractical because you could get a v for cheaper. I find this to be a big bag of crap. Not only was I not able to (nor would I) sell my 3.6l cts because the motor had internal damages, but the entire cost of my project was about $7,500. Even if you paid $10,000 for a 3.6l cts, this cost comes out to be in key with the v. Many people however find their cts for much less than a dime. Keep in mind that this cost was including the performance parts I added, and that I had some good deals and hookups come through on this. Looking for the deals is the key. Third, I want to cover the braking issue. Many argue that the v brembos are far superior. After research, they only help in scenarios of autox. There isn't a benefit on the street or highway, the 3.6 and v weights are identical. I used my 3.6l brakes and used no abs. This can cause the vehicle to stop faster since the brakes aren't pulsating. Some say this is unsafe, but I never had any issues at all even in scenarios when I had to brake quickly. If you look into depth on this, the Chrysler brembos are in fact worse than the base model brakes and are only there for show. And throughout the caddy forums you will find v owners swapping brakes to base model for wheel fitment ect.

Here is the forum that came from:
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=42798

He is also on another Cadillac forum where there are a lot more pics of the build and his process. That site has a million ads though and is a pain to go through. I will still look for that link.

[kevm14]

I agree it depends on how you drive the car, as far as the brakes are concerned. For daily driving purposes (and the occasional blast to triple digits) you definitely do not NEED the V brakes. That said, the brakes are one of the very special performance features about the car and I will say first hand that they will absolutely stand up to repeated abuse. I'm still on the same pads that were on the car when I bought it (though I only put 20k on the car so maybe that's not surprising).

I will also say that aside from performance or fade resistance, the 4 piston fixed calipers also have a feel that cannot be duplicated by conventional brakes. They are pressure sensitive, like proper racing brakes, with little dead travel in the brake pedal. Basically, world class brakes, or as world class as you could possibly need on a 400hp sedan.

The weight difference between the V and regular is a combo of engine, trans, front and rear sub-frames, possibly a heavier 2 piece driveshaft, the bigger brakes, probably a bigger diff, and possibly other structural enhancements. You may elect not to care about this stuff but I sure appreciate having the total package. Your goals may not require it and you will end up with a lighter car.

That post sounds old based on his quoted car values. V's are worth less than when he probably started that job. If you get a CTS for $1800 and put $7,500 in it to make it into a V (and probably still miss aspects that he's dismissing), you have $9,300 into the car, and you CAN get a V for that. Your argument may be that you'd be re-doing the powertrain anyway, so might as well start with a cheaper car. That's fair I guess. But I don't want an 800hp V1. I'd be totally happy with an LS6 that had heads/cam/exhaust, which would be in the 550 hp range (N/A) and be just awesome to drive (and still quite fast). You also wouldn't have to sweat over drivetrain upgrades since the torque output wouldn't increase much (and it would increase a LOT with forced induction).

[Adam]

V's are worth less than when he probably started that job.

Reserve not met, but it is in CT:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-CTS-V-/111824806608

That may turn out to be a more viable option than a PPV, although it doesn't have the rear legroom.

[bill25]

So it is an interesting idea. Some background on this. I was getting really pissed that the values of good condition Monte's were getting out of the price point where it would be worth doing up like a race car. Which is basically what I wanted. I always liked that people took that platform (G-Body) and made all kinds of crazy builds with them. I like the idea of the poor man's race car. I always thought that was the G-Body. I also like the body style because with enough money you can make anything fast. The G-Body looks pretty badass to me.

But now, It is getting more and more valuable. If I have to pay around 5K (or more, there are some nice ones between 8 and 10K) to get one in good shape, and put another 10K into it, that is still a lot of power for the money but I don't have 20K for a part time driver.

So I started looking at other donor platforms that might be cheaper than a good condition Monte. The Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car came up, but that is a little big and heavy for me. So I went from Town Car to CTS and found that they are around 3500 lbs, which is very close to Monte weight, and have pretty nice interiors, and have decent exteriors. There are some tweaks to the CTS that can be made to look better. Different grill etc.

The point is, I wasn't looking at the CTS and saying I could make a gen1 CTS-V, I was looking to it to make the 650+HP LS swap race car that the Monte was supposed to be, but for less money, less fabrication and more safety equipment (airbags...). It looks like the gauges work, but need to be wired, not replaced or Digital to Analog converted as in the Monte, this has rear disk brakes already, that is nice.

So, that being said, does it still make sense to start with a V? That has the aluminum LS motor that is not the best for turbo, forums talk about it not having a great rear end, including pictures of it exploded, and I am not convinced I want a manual, which I know is heresy but yeah.

I also like the full leather black interior of the regular CTS.

On a serious note though, how would emissions come into play here? The Monte gets a free pass, this, not so much...

[kevm14]

V's are worth less than when he probably started that job.

Reserve not met, but it is in CT:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-CTS-V-/111824806608

That may turn out to be a more viable option than a PPV, although it doesn't have the rear legroom.

A CTS-V would get better fuel economy than your Fleetwood.

[kevm14]

On a serious note though, how would emissions come into play here? The Monte gets a free pass, this, not so much...

With a custom engine tune, you're done. It would have your VIN, and you could program out every single diagnostic test routine if you wanted, so all of the systems would become ready, and no check engine light. Now, that would not be my preferred method, but it's a get out of jail card in case you did have a difficult issue.

You also COULD run into issues with the visual inspection (i.e. headers), or the fact that the emissions diagram will show a certain system (like an EGR valve) but your build may delete it. No experience there.

[Adam]

On a serious note though, how would emissions come into play here? The Monte gets a free pass, this, not so much...

With a custom engine tune, you're done. It would have your VIN, and you could program out every single diagnostic test routine if you wanted, so all of the systems would become ready, and no check engine light. Now, that would not be my preferred method, but it's a get out of jail card in case you did have a difficult issue.

You also COULD run into issues with the visual inspection (i.e. headers), or the fact that the emissions diagram will show a certain system (like an EGR valve) but your build may delete it. No experience there.

The rules on engine swaps differ by state. They are usually something to the effect of: donor powerplant should be the same model year or newer and retains all factory emissions equipment from donor. There might also be terrible stipulations like: same type of vehicle (no truck engine in a car), same number of cylinders, same displacement, etc...

Since I plan on doing this sometime in the not to distant future, I should figure out what the RI rules are for legitimate swaps.

[Adam]

From http://www.riinspection.org/faq.htm for "modified vehicles":

Vehicles with exchanged engines: These vehicles are inspected for emissions compliance based on the chassis model year of the vehicle. However, if the engine is newer than the chassis model year, the emissions inspection is based on the model year of the engine.

Shouldn't be an issue for my planned LT1-in-a-G-Body. The particular LT1 was always at the minimums for various concentrations of gasses.

[Adam]

Also:

Reconstructed and homemade vehicles: These vehicles are inspected for emissions compliance using the standards and test procedures applicable for exhaust emission, functional emissions control devices, and visual inspection for each individual vehicle - based on the engine year of the engine installed in the vehicle.