2016 Charger R/T Scat Pack

[kevm14]

I exempt real estate from that argument for a few reasons:

1) It's not supposed to depreciate like a car

2) It is an order of magnitude more expensive

3) Tax deductible interest and other tax benefits which have a very limited application to cars (like the EV tax credit)

What I am arguing is that if you can't wait 3 years to save up, then you buy a cheap car to get you by while you save.

The reason I keep harping on the $2k car for me is exactly for this reason - I don't have enough cash in reserve to feel comfortable dropping $10k on my next daily driver, especially when the house is a priority. Going out and getting a payment doesn't really change anything, except that I've committed to that expense.

[Adam]

Anecdotal story w/o a car payment:

Some time ago, I was in college and needed a car. My white Tercel had too much rust to pass inspection and my inspection sticker was running out. I did not want to pay for or do the non-trivial amount of body work required to keep it on the road. I was only working part time and didn't have a lot of money saved that was readily available to buy a car with.

I could have run out and purchased something newer and taken on payment. Even wth my low earnings at the time, I could have been able to "afford" a small car payment. Instead, I found another Tercel nearby whose body was solid, but needed a transmission. I gave the guy $350 cash for it, then drove it home without 4th gear. By the time I got home, it didn't have 3rd gear either.

That weekend I swapped the transmission and all the other recently replaced parts into the new Tercel, then drove it for several years before I finished school and bought my Caprice. No, the Caprice is not the moral of the story, rather just something to give the above story time context.

As far as depreciation goes, I ended up selling the green Tercel for $450 after driving it for ~3 years, making a sweet $100 profit.

[Adam]

Now, if houses are an order of magnitude more expensive, I can do the same thing. Does anyone know where I can buy a $3500 house?

[kevm14]

I was referring to the "typical" $30,000 car that most people would need a loan to pay for. But I think you knew that...

[Bob]

I would argue that the $2k car isn't for everyone. For someone with DIY ability and time, this makes great financial sense. For someone lacks mechanical skills and/or free time, it might actually be better to spend a bit more for a car that will not require as much attention.

[kevm14]

Also, preempting Bill's response that buying a car to swap transmissions on isn't his idea of a good time, I would offer that there is plenty of reliable transportation for, say, $3,000. You may have to administer some TLC, but probably not a transmission.

Having more vehicles also helps. It doesn't take a lot of extra cars before you can feel comfortable significantly dropping the purchase price.

It's all about perspective. What Bill describes is not unique. In fact I've heard those anecdotes over and over again ("I needed something reliable to get to work so I went out and bought a brand new car"). I don't claim to understand it, but it's quite common. I have the minority position.

I can't argue preferences but I will try to correct fallacies:

1) "I need to buy a new car so it will be reliable." No, you don't. Translation: "I want to drive a new car like everyone else seems to be."

2) "Used cars are a gamble and you will be stuck with someone else's problem." Not exactly. Translation: "I have been buying the wrong used cars and probably should be willing to learn about repairing them. Also, I want to drive a new car like everyone else seems to be."

3) "I can afford the payment so I am financially responsible." Sorry, I don't subscribe to this. Translation: "I am incapable of saving money unless a creditor is physically billing me each month, then I will obviously make sure I find a way to pay the bill."

Now Bill, I am not attacking you on #3. You made your decisions and I don't think you are incapable of saving money. But I think #3 does apply to a LOT of people and it's a huge pet peeve of mine.

All that said, you could make the argument that, at least for "the wife's car," getting something you know you won't need to work on has its appeal. However, for me, even that argument doesn't have much sway; look what I bought for Jamie. And the reason is because I end up driving it most times that we go out of town. Hating it would be bad, but hating it with a car payment - no way I could handle that.

[kevm14]

I would argue that the $2k car isn't for everyone. For someone with DIY ability and time, this makes great financial sense. For someone lacks mechanical skills and/or free time, it might actually be better to spend a bit more for a car that will not require as much attention.

I agree. Also, depending on your income situation, it may actually be a better use of your time to either buy the new car with the warranty, or buy a used car and have it serviced at a shop, because your rate is actually above that (i.e. taking time off work, or using precious weekend time). Sadly, I don't think I currently fall into that bucket, regardless of the "preciousness" of my weekend time.

However, it did occur to me recently that if the SRX needed a major, urgent repair, I had better have a backup car that Jamie can use. I guess that would be my.....300k mile Caprice. lol

[Bob]

I pretty much have zero free time lately, but I still manage to squeeze in minimal maintenance and easy repairs. At this point, I would probably be better off paying someone to change my oil and rotate my tires, but I find the work to be satisfying.

[bill25]

I am not going to argue the idea that people probably buy more car than they can or should afford, that does happen, but the idea that everyone should be a mechanic is ridiculous. Also even someone who knows about cars can get burned on a used car purchase depending on how the previous owner maintained the car. Even a lot of minor maintenance can add up very quickly if you are not mechanically inclined and have to go somewhere for the repairs. This could easily add up to more than the monthly payments of a 3 year old cheaper used car.


I am just saying, it is easy to judge if you aren't in the situation. At the end of the day, people need cars to go to work. Most people that you are criticizing for buying a newer more reliable car can't afford multiple fall back plans that they paid cash for. Also, I am not going to have my wife drive a 2K car with my daughter in the freezing cold to potentially break down on the bridge when I can make an easy payment and know if it still happens, I did everything I could reasonably do to prevent it. I am much less concerned about myself breaking down. I think I broke down in EVERY used car I paid 2K or less for, and have broken down in exactly zero cars I financed.

Broke down in:
Jimmy
Sable
Topaz
Monte Carlo - kind of
Z-24 - computer died, wouldn't start


Didn't break down in:
626
626
Mazda3
RAV4
Corolla
Volvo - although this is the anomaly, this car was atrocious, it just didn't actually break down

Kevin, you argue all the points, but this is the actual real evidence, The Asian cars fared the most reliable, and the financed ones were more reliable as fact. Yes I paid more for the Aisian ones, but your argument is that the cheaper onse are still reliable, which for me was absolutely not true at all.

[kevm14]

2) "Used cars are a gamble and you will be stuck with someone else's problem." Not exactly. Translation: "I have been buying the wrong used cars and probably should be willing to learn about repairing them. Also, I want to drive a new car like everyone else seems to be."

Fair enough that not everyone should be a mechanic. However, if you have the APTITUDE to do so, and doing your own work would be financially beneficial, you should pursue that. And by financially beneficial, I mean you are NOT in a situation where taking time off work to fix your car could get you fired, which some people unfortunately are. Nor if you are in a situation where you "have more money than time" as they say.

My Caprice stranded me for something that was not actually my fault exactly once that I can recall (ok maybe twice, see below). It was blowing ECM fuses due to a shorted out EGR vacuum solenoid. Yes it was towed. I did the troubleshooting myself with the FSM, disconnected the solenoid, and lived with the EGR DTC until I replaced the solenoid, at a cost of $26 for the part (from the dealer). If I didn't understand things, yes, I could have blown this problem way out of proportion and eventually gotten rid of the car. But this occurred in 2002 or 2003. I fixed it and moved on.

A leaky water pump almost stranded me (at like 185k) but I made it back to a place I could work on it before being stranded, because I noticed very flaky coolant temps on the dash. That repair cost like $37 and that was probably a good 11+ years ago. That water pump is still on the car.

Nearly got stranded when the cat clogged/broke apart but made it back to my parents house where I gutted it. Cost: $0 and drove it like that for years. I think I was cat-less until I converted to the LT1-style duals.

The ECM fuse, water pump and cat probably would have been indictments of the used car if it happened to you. Don't know what else to say. They all happened when my Caprice was my only car. Was I calm, cool and collected? No, but I got through it, learned something in the process, and it cost me very little.

Smashed wheels/tires: my fault.

Differential: my fault.

Drilling through my wiring harness: priceless (Bob was there).

Fuel pump (college): this stranded me but the reason it failed was my fault. At the very least, I exacerbated it after a botched attempt to upgrade my pump and having to go back to my old stocker (which didn't last long after that).

Fuel pump, again (2008?): didn't strand as banging on the tank got it going again until I could replace the pump. Pumps are under $100. The labor part kind of sucks.

Starter: this actually did strand me but turned out to be corroded battery cables. I cleaned them and that lasted until much later when I upgraded to heavy gauge cables.

Rear wheel seal: pretty bad leak. Didn't strand. Just drove it back to CT and converted to rear discs (is that normal?).

Alternator not charging properly due to wiring harness issue: did not strand. Temporarily fixed with zipties and went through harness later, and found nothing. Never happened again, to date.

More recently, MAP sensor failure. Didn't strand me but because I notice things I was able to diagnose and replace it quickly. Now I have that wiring harness issue but that hasn't stranded me, either.

So only two strandings (ECM fuse and "starter") were organically a failure of the car and not caused by something I did. The rest were either my fault, or did not result in a stranding.

Context/perspective: I've had the car since 2001 with 113k. Bought it for $3,500. Drove it 187k. Add up these repairs and I am still significantly money ahead vs buying some Japanese appliance new in 2001 and doing only oil changes. And I enjoyed the ownership of my Caprice immeasurably over something like that.