M/T: 740E vs LS500 vs G90 vs Continental

[Bob]

There is a plug in hybrid version of the CT6.

[kevm14]

and possibly an MSRP that was closer to the typical transaction price.

I really don't like this. Actual prices should be transparent.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here. But I assume you are agreeing with Bob.

What I will add is that it is understandable, especially with higher priced luxury cars, that the sales price will be lower than the MSRP. Bob is saying if the sales price tends to be a lot lower, then the MSRP is too high. When buying a 4 cylinder Honda Accord, you are going to probably pay something much closer to MSRP than a Mercedes S-class. That's just the way that works.

[kevm14]

There is a plug in hybrid version of the CT6.

That version is 2 tenths and 2 mph faster than the full boat Continental. That's pretty funny.

[bill25]

Bob is saying if the sales price tends to be a lot lower, then the MSRP is too high.

I agree with Bob. I was saying I don't like the haggle pricing. Dealership experiences are awful, and this is half of the reason. The other half is all the garbage they lock you in a room and try to sell you. The price of the car should be the price of the car, especially when talking about a new car.

[kevm14]

This is actually a little bit of a complex topic.

One phenomenon is that some people like to feel like they negotiated and got a "good deal." I don't care about the feeling of negotiating (it's actually unpleasant but some people like it, I suppose)- I just want a good deal. All the time.

Also, the price could probably be much more set BUT there are still going to be exceptions where better deals can be had. For example, something that's been on the lot for 120 days. Or simply the end of the month quota. In a world where most people pay the same price, I am still going to be the guy looking out for that more discounted car due to the conditions I just mentioned. I guess this would improve the experience for a wide majority of people though, so that's good. For used cars, you can often find good deals on these, too, because sometimes the dealer gets a trade or a used car from an auction that just is not popular in the area and it sits around (think of a V-sport on a Toyota lot...why would they even do that unless THEY didn't know what it was?).

The other thing is, different products have different built in margins. That is also normal across the consumer industry. So I stand by my Accord vs S-class analogy. Also, this is not "wrong" because it accounts for the fact that the volume is usually less on higher priced goods. Point is, the margin shouldn't just be the same percentage on all goods - I mean maybe you would argue it should be but I'll say for economics sake that it can't be. The market supports Apple's outrageous margins on the iPhone, for better or for worse. On the other hand, you can't negotiate down from asking price on much anymore. So in a way, maybe it's good that you still can on cars.

I've said "on the other hand" a fair amount in this thread. Am I one of those people now?

[Bob]

Any good economics discussion involves frequent use of "on the other hand."

[bill25]

Point is, the margin shouldn't just be the same percentage on all goods

That isn't my issue. I don't care about the profit margin, companies are allowed to make money. I think it is ridiculous to have a grossly high MSRP that nobody pays, and what you pay is related to your arguing skills or how bad you get hustled at the dealer. Seems like a nonsense way to price something.

This is more of a discussion about how the process of buying a car at a dealer is stupid and miserable.

We should get back to the discussion of why it appears that Lincoln is seeing some success with it's Continental, even with a lack of refinement, while Cadillac struggles to sell any volume with what seems to be much better drivetrains. I am thinking that people are buying based on exterior style/interior niceties (the seats etc.) over performance. I think that makes sense for a luxury segment. Maybe people aren't sold on the Cadillac exterior/interior? Not really sure. I don't think it is reputation alone because I still think Cadillac has a better reputation than Lincoln, especially based on Lincoln's previous styling.

[kevm14]

This is more of a discussion about how the process of buying a car at a dealer is stupid and miserable.

It is. I'm just not sure a "fixed price" is the way to improve it as the price a dealer is willing to sell a car (and the manufacturer, for hold backs) for will still change with conditions. I don't want to get stuck paying everyone's "no haggle price" when I could have done better in a certain scenario. And regulating the price down to some level of profit that I consider acceptable is also not the way to do it.

We should get back to the discussion of why it appears that Lincoln is seeing some success with it's Continental, even with a lack of refinement, while Cadillac struggles to sell any volume with what seems to be much better drivetrains. I am thinking that people are buying based on exterior style/interior niceties (the seats etc.) over performance. I think that makes sense for a luxury segment. Maybe people aren't sold on the Cadillac exterior/interior? Not really sure. I don't think it is reputation alone because I still think Cadillac has a better reputation than Lincoln, especially based on Lincoln's previous styling.

I think Lincoln may have a better reliability reputation than Cadillac. Not sure how true that is (perceived or real).

Some numbers:
YTD sales for Continental: 10,796
YTD sales for CT6: 9,701

Unless I am missing something, I don't think it is legitimate to characterize the Continental as a big sales success for Lincoln and the CT6 is a miserable failure for Cadillac. Oh, here's one that is actually probably more telling:
YTD sales for CTS: 9,539

Can I pull that crap where I add CTS sales to CT6 sales because the Continental overlaps both price ranges?

[kevm14]

The ATS is another segment but let's talk about it.

YTD sales for ATS: 12,007

The ATS has outsold the following vehicles this year:
Volvo S60
Acura ILX
BMW 2-Series
Infiniti Q60
Jaguar XE
Alfa Romeo Giulia
Lexus RC
BMW i3
Lexus CT
Volvo V60

That's something I guess but none of those are known for being volume sellers. The following vehicles outsold the ATS:
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
BMW 3-Series
BMW 4-Series
Infiniti Q50
Audi A4
Acura TLX
Lexus IS
Mercedes-Benz CLA-Class
Audi A5

Naturally they'd want the ATS to compete with these guys. And it's not a good situation. The A5, the worst on the list, has 50% better sales than the ATS. It just gets worse (a lot worse) from there, all the way to the C-class which outsells the ATS by 500%.

[kevm14]

May as well pull the thread on the CTS as at least that is closer to the comparison that started this thread.

YTD sales for CTS: 9,539
Which is ahead of the following vehicles this year:
Volvo S90
Lexus GS
Infiniti Q70
Maserati Ghibli
Audi A7
Jaguar XF
Volvo V90
Tesla Model 3
Acura RLX
Kia K900
Lincoln MKS

Like with the ATS, the list of what is ahead is really the issue:
Lexus ES
Mercedes-Benz E / CLS-Class
BMW 5-Series
Lincoln MKZ
Cadillac XTS
Genesis G80
Audi A6
Lincoln Continental
Cadillac CT6