http://autoweek.com/article/drive-revie ... dailydrive
So this appears to offer a little more performance than a WRX STi for like $3k less price. Therefore, if you were not a candidate for a WRX STi in the past, I don't see why the Focus RS will change anything, regardless of where it is in the segment.
I am ambivalent about the tech in this car - it almost reads like an affordable GT-R hatch. On paper, and by the numbers, it looks like a killer. Which kids on the internet will love. And a 5 door hatch means it is theoretically useful. But I think for best driver's car under $40k that runs 12s (and even 13s), that is almost definitely still the new Camaro SS.
All that said, I do still agree that GM needs something in this segment, only if for PR reasons. It would be nice to see something upset the segment like the Cobalt SS turbo did in 2008. The Focus RS is doing that right now...
Focus RS
Re: Focus RS
Wow. I think I pretty much agree with all of that.
More performance for less money is generally good. Aesthetics help to, and I usually think Subaru's are ugly.
Why does this have to come in hatchback form? I would be more likely to buy it as a sedan, partly because I am not 12. I don't really understand why there can't be a fast, performing small car. It has to be a "Hot Hatch"?
The question is how much price difference, in reality, is there between those cars. If the RS is 35 or 36K for real (I think the RS has just about everything to begin with, like the SS, not the Camaro SS), and you option the Camaro to 44 or 45K, that is still a decent difference, not that I have enough for either.
More performance for less money is generally good. Aesthetics help to, and I usually think Subaru's are ugly.
Why does this have to come in hatchback form? I would be more likely to buy it as a sedan, partly because I am not 12. I don't really understand why there can't be a fast, performing small car. It has to be a "Hot Hatch"?
The question is how much price difference, in reality, is there between those cars. If the RS is 35 or 36K for real (I think the RS has just about everything to begin with, like the SS, not the Camaro SS), and you option the Camaro to 44 or 45K, that is still a decent difference, not that I have enough for either.
Re: Focus RS
Also, for me, I have a Mazda3, which is basically a Focus, but slightly better(minor things like suspension, styling). A way better Focus is better than my car, which I do like. I would LOVE 350 HP in my car (That is 200 more than current). RWD would be better, but AWD, especially this AWD setup with up to 70% to the rear is awesome.
Re: Focus RS
I don't think a 1SS Camaro is void of standard features. And it ought not to be, since it is like $37k.billgiacheri wrote:The question is how much price difference, in reality, is there between those cars. If the RS is 35 or 36K for real (I think the RS has just about everything to begin with, like the SS, not the Camaro SS), and you option the Camaro to 44 or 45K, that is still a decent difference, not that I have enough for either.
Re: Focus RS
As you mentioned, the biggest difference between the Camaro SS and the Focus RS is that the Focus is a far more useful daily driver. Being a 5 door hatch with AWD will make this a realistic daily driver for many. A RWD coupe with poor visibility out of the car doesn't quite do it.kevm14 wrote: I am ambivalent about the tech in this car - it almost reads like an affordable GT-R hatch. On paper, and by the numbers, it looks like a killer. Which kids on the internet will love. And a 5 door hatch means it is theoretically useful. But I think for best driver's car under $40k that runs 12s (and even 13s), that is almost definitely still the new Camaro SS.
Re: Focus RS
I have had hatchbacks for a long time, and I have to say that it is quite a useful feature. The usefullness is not something you encounter on a test drive. It is when you need to bring something home and it actually fits that it really shines.billgiacheri wrote:Why does this have to come in hatchback form? I would be more likely to buy it as a sedan, partly because I am not 12. I don't really understand why there can't be a fast, performing small car. It has to be a "Hot Hatch"?
I don't see any advantage to having a sedan for most purposes.. I suppose some think that sedans are better looking or more macho or something. If so, then it's just an aesthetic thing. Which is why I don't care.
I'm sure you're all about to tell me that the stiffness in the sedan over the hatchback is really the reason you don't like them. I guess that's why all these hot hatches tend to fold in half spontaneously in corners?
Re: Focus RS
It may be that Bill and I have had similar cultural breeding on hatchbacks. For me, I think the answer is relatively simple: in the 80s and early 90s, a hatchback was synonymous with an economy car. And by economy car, I don't just mean affordable, but I really mean completely void of performance and styling. Which is why we don't get the "hot hatch" thing because it's like the best version of a thing we never liked or understood. So, in a way, yes, it is aesthetic, because that shape will always be associated with pretty terrible cars.
I also have no experience with how much cargo capability hatchbacks bring to the table but I can understand you can generally fit larger objects in them. I do like the separation of cargo from occupants in a sedan, though.
Now from Ed's perspective, I should point out that something like a Saab 900 was really not on my radar at all, though I don't think I necessarily lumped it into the same group as the others. I probably DID think it was a niche for a reason (overpriced and fairly small). But that's as new cars.
From my standpoint, the best car is the biggest, fanciest, fastest sedan. Which is why I look at the 750iL with such reverence. I also like the shape better and even Ed will admit that the hatchback form looks terrible on a large vehicle. Need evidence? Honda Accord Crosstour. Dumpy is being kind. Since I like large cars, I therefore have no use for a hatchback CAR. The SRX has a hatch, but the shape is more tall wagon, which I don't mind.
The other aspect, which is really kind of dumb, is that hot hatches are something that you are required to like if you are like 18-25 and male. The combination of that plus Japanese and European influences just makes me run the other way (which is why it is hard for me to enjoy Mighty Car Mods - I can't stand the "tuner" scene). It's not that I'd be embarrassed to be seen in one, just that I have no emotional connection, so there's really nothing to overcome.
What's really interesting is that the other half of the world probably has the exact same opinion of the sedan shape. Boring, ugly, no performance. Life is funny.
I also have no experience with how much cargo capability hatchbacks bring to the table but I can understand you can generally fit larger objects in them. I do like the separation of cargo from occupants in a sedan, though.
Now from Ed's perspective, I should point out that something like a Saab 900 was really not on my radar at all, though I don't think I necessarily lumped it into the same group as the others. I probably DID think it was a niche for a reason (overpriced and fairly small). But that's as new cars.
From my standpoint, the best car is the biggest, fanciest, fastest sedan. Which is why I look at the 750iL with such reverence. I also like the shape better and even Ed will admit that the hatchback form looks terrible on a large vehicle. Need evidence? Honda Accord Crosstour. Dumpy is being kind. Since I like large cars, I therefore have no use for a hatchback CAR. The SRX has a hatch, but the shape is more tall wagon, which I don't mind.
The other aspect, which is really kind of dumb, is that hot hatches are something that you are required to like if you are like 18-25 and male. The combination of that plus Japanese and European influences just makes me run the other way (which is why it is hard for me to enjoy Mighty Car Mods - I can't stand the "tuner" scene). It's not that I'd be embarrassed to be seen in one, just that I have no emotional connection, so there's really nothing to overcome.
What's really interesting is that the other half of the world probably has the exact same opinion of the sedan shape. Boring, ugly, no performance. Life is funny.
Re: Focus RS
I like the idea of the Focus RS. I would certainly consider one as a daily driver. Unfortunately, the resale value will probably be very good due to relatively limited supply.
I have actually been thinking lately how I miss daily driving something with a manual, even considering the traffic issues. Looking back on it, my two favorite daily drivers were the 02 Civic Si and the 08 Mini Cooper S. Coincidentally, these are both hatchbacks with manual transmissions.
I have actually been thinking lately how I miss daily driving something with a manual, even considering the traffic issues. Looking back on it, my two favorite daily drivers were the 02 Civic Si and the 08 Mini Cooper S. Coincidentally, these are both hatchbacks with manual transmissions.
Re: Focus RS
Maybe I should be more specific about the hatch thing. I don't necessarily dislike all of them it is on a case by case basis. I really like the IROC, which is a hatch. I don't like the Gen 4 Camaro, that is a hatch also, but I don't hate it for the hatch, I hate it for looking like a spaceship. I don't see either of these having extra room because of the hatch though.
My friend had an Escort hatch, which was fine.
I would say that disliking the hatch in the "hot hatch" segment is not a macho thing, I think a WRX with ridiculous looking hood intake and hatch with spoiler is more "macho" than my base Mazda3 sedan. I just like the sedan styling of the Mazda3 better than the "hatch Mazda3". I would rather have the understated styling of the Mazda3 sedan with the power and performance of the RS. I am not interested in a car that cops are going to pull over constantly because they think I just got my license.
Some cars look good and some don't. The Magnum looks good, but all cars don't look good as wagons. I guess it is a little frustrating that there are basically two types of performance cars: pretty big, V8 (Camaro, Mustang, Challenger/Charger) or "Hot Hatch". Where are the smaller sized RWD or AWD performance CARS? Just seems like a lack of variety.
My friend had an Escort hatch, which was fine.
I would say that disliking the hatch in the "hot hatch" segment is not a macho thing, I think a WRX with ridiculous looking hood intake and hatch with spoiler is more "macho" than my base Mazda3 sedan. I just like the sedan styling of the Mazda3 better than the "hatch Mazda3". I would rather have the understated styling of the Mazda3 sedan with the power and performance of the RS. I am not interested in a car that cops are going to pull over constantly because they think I just got my license.
Some cars look good and some don't. The Magnum looks good, but all cars don't look good as wagons. I guess it is a little frustrating that there are basically two types of performance cars: pretty big, V8 (Camaro, Mustang, Challenger/Charger) or "Hot Hatch". Where are the smaller sized RWD or AWD performance CARS? Just seems like a lack of variety.
Re: Focus RS
Cadillac ATS?billgiacheri wrote:Where are the smaller sized RWD or AWD performance CARS? Just seems like a lack of variety.
Plenty are available under $20k and even some under $17k. Now here's a great RWD or AWD daily driver with real enthusiast bones. You may have to look to find the 2.0T. The base 2.5 is lame.
ATS powertrains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ATS#Powertrains
These are all under $17k and probably the 2.5L:
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 4783&Log=0
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 8081&Log=0
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 0748&Log=0
This is a legit choice if you ask me.