2016 Civic has its mojo back

[kevm14]

http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews ... dailydrive

Sounds like the DNA is solid for future higher performance models. Even as a competitor to the BRZ/FR-S type of car.

[Bob]

It is clear that the Civic is once again fundamentally sound. I am salivating over the possible return of the Type R.

[kevm14]

Are you really? I mean, what does FWD offer other than better snow performance? Or is the argument that it is a fundamentally good car that happens to be FWD? I also think the absolute performance level of the car won't be nearly as significant as it was when the Type R came out (which trapped within 3 mph of an LT1 F-body - and speed was the thing it was least good at), because the bar has moved up. I'd argue if the Type R could pull off a 110 mph trap and handling superior to a Camaro SS or Mustang GT, on a FWD platform, then it has succeeded in the original mission. I don't think that is possible.

[Bob]

I don't think buying a Camaro or Mustang is practical for me anymore so I don't consider them in the same category as something with 5 doors that offers the ability to put things (and people) in the car as well as good driving pleasure (if not the same numbers). When I look at the Civic Type R, I would compare it to stuff like the Focus RS and Golf R. If Honda nails the intangibles better than Ford or VW then who cares which wheels are driving the car. Combine this with ultra low depreciation and better reliability and it could make sense.

I do believe that RWD cars inherently drive better than FWD or AWD, but I also believe that not every RWD performance car is going to be better to drive than every FWD or AWD performance car. A lot of it comes down to execution on the part of the producer.

[kevm14]

So there is going to be a Type R 5 door hatch? I assume this is old news and I just forgot.

You think it would be FWD based (not AWD)?

I guess my problem with the car (aside from not liking that class of car), is numbers below a Golf R and Focus RS really aren't that much better than the original Type R. And while that partly reflects on how good the Type R was (again, acceleration being its least impressive attribute), it also reflects on how far up other things have moved. I mean, on a strictly performance level, I don't think either the Golf R or Focus RS (or STi or EVO), move the needle enough compared to what is available today. But I understand the entire point is something that has decent performance for a car enthusiast (mandatory 100+ trap, probably more), good feel, and everyday usability.

Frankly my issue may be I don't find that recipe befitting of the Type R nameplate. Or even Si. That's not a Honda thing, even. So I just don't know what they'll do.

[kevm14]

I think I just can't see making an enthusiast buy without having numbers, too. Example: Miata is feel without numbers. Elise is feel with numbers. I don't understand the Miata and I do understand the Elise. It is very, very hard to make feel without numbers translate to performance in street driving scenarios. On the other hand, it is very, very easy to make numbers without feel translate to performance on the street. And I thought that was the objective argument for feel: it lets you push and explore the car, and use the performance envelope, with a possibly greater end result than something uncommunicative for example. But on the street, that really doesn't happen. The Miata isn't going to show a Charger R/T anything because the Charger R/T will be gone before enough corners happen.

Maybe I seem too concerned proving to others how much performance my car has. I sure seem to be, based on this post. But that is one attraction an enthusiast may have to a car. That you can use the car to be faster than the next guy, in a show of driving skill, raw performance, or a combination of both.

Or how about the guy who buys the car because of how it looks - surely he wants to show others how cool looking his car is. I think this social aspect is a big part of car enthusiasm.

[kevm14]

And that gets to why I emphasize track times. It is the equalizing metric that cuts through weight, handling, acceleration, braking and feel (depending on the test driver), instead of trying to piece it together from 0-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, 70-0 and braking numbers.

[kevm14]

http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews ... dailydrive

Sounds like the DNA is solid for future higher performance models. Even as a competitor to the BRZ/FR-S type of car.

More from A/W:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews ... dailydrive

[Bob]

I am happy to see another positive review. Prior to this generation, I felt like the Civic was heading down the path of the Corolla, where it is no longer competitive in the segment, but people still buy it because of what it once was. It's nice to see Honda righting the ship. I would argue that the reason many people are buying Accords, Pilots, CR-Vs and other more expensive Honda products now is because of a positive Civic experience when they were younger. If you can't attract new buyers to the brand with a good entry level product, you'll never keep the pipeline full years down the road.

[kevm14]

I suppose. I'd like to see the statistical correlation between a good entry level product and how much that buyer is now in the family, or may even trade up to the luxury marque. I know we can use logic to hand wave but I wonder what data shows. First you'd have to agree on what "good" means....