2015 GN and GNX!!!

[bill25]

This is a good news/bad news story...

The good news is in the title. The bad news is it looks like this:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/20 ... uture-cars

So, only the GNX will be all black - seems wrong to me. (Not the GN)
also
Built on the ATS alpha frame like the upcoming Camaro and CTS - good news? (Camaro should shed some hefty pounds so that is good) Probably good news.

Bad news:
Drive trains:
Buick's GN will offer the choice of a turbocharged 2.0-liter four (currently rated at 272 horsepower) - garbage for todays standards in my opinion.
or a 3.6-liter V-6 that makes 321 horses - not turbo, so why is this drive train anything more than a regular V-6 regal that isn't black? How is this a GN?

"The wicked GNX, available only in the official shade of evil (black), will be powered by a twin-turbo ­3.6-liter V-6 that should be good for 400 horsepower"
Ok so this should be the GN, and the GNX should be better than a Camaro at least, the old GN was faster than a Corvette and the new GN will be slower than a Honda Accord with it's 272 HP Turbo 4.


The only good thing to come out of this news is maybe I will get the Monte Carlo SS back, and it will be on this platform, and have the Camaro LS3 or LSA, 2 door, rear wheel drive and not be hideous. (Ok, a man can dream)

But then it would be faster than the GNX and this all makes no sense.

Somebody please tell me I am missing something. I was really excited when I heard this news. Now I don't know.

[kevm14]

Wow, Alpha-based GN and GNX? That's way better than the Epsilon II Regal GS. Which isn't a bad car, but come on.

Don't you worry, Alpha is top notch. Go read any ATS review. It is the best chassis in its class, and I'm including cars from ALL countries of origin.

However, if you want it to look and feel like a G-body, I suggest you buy a G-body!

[kevm14]

As we discussed today, I really don't think that there is anything Buick could build that would be called GN or GNX, in a sense that would make anyone who remembers the GN and GNX happy. The environment in which the GN and GNX were bred is no longer present at GM. GM uses all corporate powertrains (for good reason). The Buick division is no longer in a position where they can go off and develop a special engine for their GN (which, following the 80s rules, could be a corporate Alpha-based car), which just happens to be more powerful than what the Corvette guys are running. The LT1 in the Corvette, perhaps unlike the Corvette drivetrains in the 80s, is developed under corporate powertrain cognizance. I bet even the LS7 was designed by a special group that still worked for GM Powertrain, not the Corvette group. The new truck engines are all based on the Gen V architecture. And that LT1, by the way, is far more advanced, in a relative sense, than the TPI L98 was in the mid-80s. That's important. The 3.8 SFI turbo, on the other hand, advanced the state of the art not just for GM, but for the entire automotive industry. You're not going to see a special Buick engine, because it will be built by the same folks who design all of GM's other engines. Unless GM decided to make a special Buick engine for marketing reasons. That doesn't sound like smart money to me, though. Cadillac doesn't get that privilege. There isn't a Cadillac engine that doesn't exist in some form in another GM vehicle. So there won't be a Buick. The entire auto industry mirrors this, by the way.

I mean even the upcoming 3.6TT engine is corporate in nature. Buick can't just use that engine and somehow surprise other GM platforms...it's already going to be used in other GM vehicles.

So what we're left with is really just styling needs and a question of whether an Alpha-based GN would fulfill the mission of the original in terms of being a midsize personal luxury vehicle with distinctive but somewhat conservative styling. The concepts shown may be closer than you think in spirit. Trying to recreate the feeling of it being 1987 all over again is just impossible. The conditions are different. The conditions in the mid 80s were such that a 245hp 3400lb car was the fastest thing on the road. And right now, GM needs to be focused on building the best cars, not trying to compete with itself.

[bill25]

I agree with all of this.

My only problem with the situation is this: If "The Buick division is no longer in a position where they can go off and develop a special engine for their GN"
and
If Buick doesn't have some type of thing for this car that will have "advanced the state of the art not just for GM, but for the entire automotive industry", such as a new injection system, motor/drive train, etc. (GM did create Magna ride that they sell to Ferrari so that idea is not impossible)
and
"Unless GM decided to make a special Buick engine for marketing reasons. " (which I agree will never happen)
and
you are going to have beige 2 liter turbos with 270 HP have a Grand National badge
and it is just going to be a GM "midsize personal luxury vehicle with distinctive but somewhat conservative styling"

I think they should call it something else (maybe grand prix, monte carlo, cutlass supreme, Riviera). That's all.

I am sure the car in all 3 drive trains will be good to a certain extent, but to give it the badge of an icon just seems wrong to me. If they had this for Chevy and gave it a 3.6 non turbo, vanilla 6, the same 6 that everyone would crucify me for if I got it in the Camaro, and called it a Chevelle SS people would have heart attacks.

[kevm14]

Well let's talk about the 2004-2006 GTO for a moment.

There was a lot of foaming at the mouth when that came out. But the 2005-2006 cars came with the LS2 and soon enough the enthusiasts began to embrace the car. But the GTO that everyone remembered was a distant memory. So for the GTO, perhaps folks were so thrilled to get something with a V8 and RWD from Pontiac that they forgave the styling. I mean, the GTO platform was pretty good. Actually, it much more closely resembles what the G-body did than the Alpha platform. It was a GT-style cruiser. It handled well but was a little more "comfortable" than razor sharp.

So a modern day GN should just be Holden's latest 2 door platform with some good powertrain options (no 4 cylinders or N/A V6s).

I guess there's no reason Alpha can't fulfill the mission but it just strikes me as a little on the small side, and a little on the sharp side for a perfect match.

What it will amount to is Buick's Camaro, I suppose. I guess Grand Prix could work except there were mediocre Grand Prix's too recently. If the performance holds it might do well as a GN, even though people will have to get over this hump. Just think about it from GM's perspective. You have to use the 2 liter turbo as a base engine if you actually want to sell cars.

You also have to remember that it's GOOD this isn't the mid-80s. There are quite a few good performance cars to choose from today, with or without the GN revival.

As a B-body and Impala SS enthusiast, I'm happier that the Chevy SS exists, than if it didn't. I do wish they brought back a whole line of fullsize RWD cars (it works for Chrysler), using the Caprice nameplate and even one for Buick (hello Park Ave). Maybe they will if the SS gets some street cred.

[bill25]

I think I came up with something we would both agree on:

Buick Regal LS - 2.0 Turbo
Buick Regal - GS - 3.6L (The forth Gen Regal GS was equipped with the supercharged 3.8 liter V6 engine (L67) produced 240 hp (180 kW) & 280 lb.ft (380 N.m) of torque - from Wikipedia)
Buick Grand National - 3.6 Twin Turbo
GNX - none until they figure out a few cool upgrades to the GN

On an alpha platform, just not chopped like the Camaro is so it looks like a Sedan.

[kevm14]

I think that is reasonable, actually.

[Fast_Ed]

I finally read through all this and agree with most of what was said, surprisingly.

Less surprisingly, I agree with Bill's lineup with a revived Regal using the 2.0l turbo, etc, etc.

The GNX was a *very* limited version of the already limited Grand National.. If GM were willing to gamble on it, I bet they could get pretty close to modern LS V8 output from a turbo V6. ( think I just heard a loud angry sigh from Kevin's direction) Even more spectacular would be a turbocharged LS motor. (Louder Sigh?)

I also feel like GM is missing a real opportunity here to use the model Dodge proved with it's Challenger. Those things are selling like crazy; even I kinda want one. They could definately make this car more boxy and a little more recognizeable in a lineup. Put the pictured car in a parking lot with a modern SHO, Chevy SS, and this thing. Other than size and color, there is not distinguishing one from another from a distance. Park a real GNX in that lineup.. Yep, I can pick that up.

[kevm14]

I also feel like GM is missing a real opportunity here to use the model Dodge proved with it's Challenger. Those things are selling like crazy; even I kinda want one.

You say that but I am pretty certain that the Challenger has never sold at the numbers the Camaro has. So the Camaro has been the #1 selling pony car of this generation. Of course, perhaps that actually bolsters your point as it has retro-modern styling. However, if 60s retro is acceptable, do you really think 80s retro is acceptable? That would be a car for 30-40 somethings who remember the GN as punching through the doldrums of the 80s. The baby boomers, though, are the ones with disposable income for cool retro cars, and they remember the 60s cars most fondly.

[Fast_Ed]

Perhaps the GNX should wait until those people can afford it then. If GM is really trying to trade on that name, then they need to make sure the market they are targeting really exists.

That applies whether they keep it bland or choose to style it correctly.