M/T: BMW M4 vs 2016 Camaro

[kevm14]

From Camaro6:

Yeah it's awesome that Chevy can raid the GM parts bin for cool bits from the ATS, CTS and Corvette. Ford had no current RWD cars while designing the Mustang 6G so they created some from scratch but had to make do with other stuff from god knows where (maybe the F-150?).

My expectation is that the new Focus RS will takeover as the kingpin of affordable performance at Ford. It basically already is in the rest of Ford's markets. Mustang will continue to be made but it will be up to them if they will let it continue to try to compete with Camaro or move it more towards the Challenger. Right now, in the "Muscle Car Segment" you have:

- Camaro aka "The Athlete"
- Challenger / Charger aka "The Cruisers"
- Mustang...right now, without the GT350 (which is a limited production model with every race car piece they could afford to slap on it) it is kind of in the middle still reigning in sales to the mainstream customers. Just sporty enough to grab a few enthusiasts and stylish/comfortable enough to grab some of the cruising crowd.

That description of the Mustang has kind of always been true.

[kevm14]

I feel someone shopping either the 1LE or GT350 is probably fairly set on that car.. The only way they may get the other one if they go in and are disappointed with the car they were thinking of.

I think you'll get much more cross shopping on the SS (with or without 1LE) and GT trims even though any SS outperforms the GT. People who aren't Camaro folk probably feel the 350 is more special than the 1LE even if 1LE performs as well or better than 350.

Response:

Well said. If you really want one or the other your gonna buy it. I for one see the 1LE being sold at huge discounts and I see dealer gouge for the 350. I cross shopped a little bit, Ford treated me like dirt, same way they treated me in 2005 when I went looking. Heck I make well into the 6 figure range. So maybe I just got a working man face and demeanor. Chevy dealers treat me right. I've owned BMW, Volvo, Acura etc, so I'm a least in the upper midrange. I really think Ford has too much hubris.

I'll admit the Mustang is much closer now then 1998 the LS1 had maybe 320 real HP and the Cobra had 300 or less real HP the GT had like 215 to 260. GM had a great 3 link with panhard, Ford had a floppy 4 link with no lateral rod. GM had A arms vs Ford with Fairmont parts.

Now I see run of the mill SS nipping at hand built 5.2 selling at markup. Dodge is stuck with a over two ton platform and no money. It really looks like GM has all the options from 7.0 liters to superchargers to Z/28. I'm sorry collectability many times means it wins races and something tells me the 2016 Camaro is going to be dominant.

I've owned and raced a Type R since 1997, I've spent insane money on minuscule gains in HP and weight savings. Looking at the V6 1LE, I'm thinking hmm 3500 lbs, pretty good fuel economy and maybe a supercharger. GM is saying the V6 1LE out performs last year's SS.

So nut shell I like the 350, I just think they are running out of cards and want way too much for what it is. There is a new game in town and it is the 2016 Camaro.

Random Mustang dumping (which I think has objective legitimacy):

The 4.6 was a bad joke, I hated the thing and please after the 5.0 notch back everything from 1994 to 2004 was so so ugly. I like all pony cars except the ugly ones and they were ugly slow and the strut 4 link Fairmont suspension were terrible in all but the most tightest springs negative camber settings. Just terrible. Camaros rulled from LT1 to LS1 to 2008 / 2009 when the Challenger came out.

[kevm14]

Random GT350 dumping:

No stock gt350 has hit 11's yet. It may happen but they just have a really hard time getting moving with their feminine powerband.

lol

[bill25]

Maybe New Top Gear or some YouTube show will have the balls to show the 1LE destroy the GT350. This new Mustang needs a new Mustang.

[Bob]

One category that has to go to the new Mustang is appearance. The 2016 Camaro is rather blah and requires close inspection to determine whether it is the new generation or not. It is a shame that a vehicle that has been improved so radically under the sheet metal looks about the same on the outside.

[kevm14]

That was done on purpose.

[Bob]

Yes, I am familiar with the "current owners liked it so we didn't change anything" story.

[kevm14]

Well I don't think it's a cover-up. I think that's what happened. Also I think you should see an SS in person to make final judgment.

[kevm14]

A surprising amount of Type R content on the Camaro6 thread:

The new chassis and carbon fiber rims would close the gap to nill on a 7.0 gen 6 IMO. I will also point out the Z/28 had the same top HP to the wheels but wait! It had upto 100 ft /lbs across a HUGE section of the usable curve.

I also race a type R, current configuration is a sleeved all bore 86mm x 82mm 2.1 liter 285 HP at 9200 RPM NA, in actual performance due to the peaky nature of the HP I have to knock 10% vs a K24 engine at 2.4 liters just because of the K24s broader torque curve mainly due to longer stroke. That is 28 hard to get HP at about 100 bucks a HP... Yep it cost almost $3000 above an already built 1.8 l Type R B18C to put out the same usable HP as a stock K24 can do with bolt ons and maybe cams. LOL technology. This is the last B engine I'll ever build.

So Ford can get all the peak power they want, but it is HP applied under the curve over the run: 1/4 or road race. Ford guys will find out soon enough as the Honda guys have know for years 4V twin cam: the 4v can generate the HP and it all sounds good literally. But ain't gonna replace CID.

Apparently the ricer crowd is learning about displacement.

[kevm14]

Uh oh.

350 tech cars sell almost 2 to 1 track cars. Ford made those Recaro seats way to tight for most adults. But the 17 350's will all come with coolers and the track pack as the base. The tech pack can be added as an option. The 15 /16 tech cars can't run more then 15 minutes without going into limp mode ( no coolers ) Short shifting doesn't help. Some very pissed off owners of the 16 tech and base cars. Worst then the Z06 case.
Ford clearly messed up on optioning the 15/16 350 and now realize it. I passed on one @ MSRP. MSRP in my mind is still a bad deal. Those 16 tech cars orders are being cancelled left and right because of the heating problems.

So Ford making the Track Pack standard on 17 had dual motives...Camaro SS and overheating issues.