M/T: BMW M4 vs 2016 Camaro

[kevm14]

I said Ford and clearly the dealership represents Ford. But is deeper. A 1ss is a 1ss, nothing special, go down buy one today. 1800 plus off MSRP, toss in a bunch of dealer add ins.

Go to Ford, oh you want a 5.2 eh, well you need to put some cash down, sight unseen final price unfiggen known, we will let you know how big of a hole we will rip into you if and when we have one for you, you want info, sorry smuck look that stuff up yourself we can't be bother giving you info on a 55K car. So YEP ALL OF FORD from their dealer to their marketing of cars.

So go down yourself and let me know what your 5.2 deal is like.. For me, it was like I'm a second class citizen. Been that way my whole life, so maybe that is why I like the Chevy, car is great, dealer is great, my last chevy a LS1 Camaro, car great, dealer great, dealer performance parts were great.

He has a point though I am sure GM would be happier if they were in a position to pull that crap on potential Camaro buyers. The fact is, Shelby is a much stronger brand than anything attached to "Camaro."

[Bob]

I saw one in person a couple weeks ago in traffic. It didn't do a lot more for me than the V6 I rented. I still love the way the car drives. I am just saying I think Ford did a better job freshening the appearance of the '15 Mustang than GM did with the '16 Camaro.

From a marketing perspective, asking current owners how they feel about the appearance can be a dangerous game because of post-purchase rationalization. I agree that current owners are probably the most likely segment to become future buyers of a new product and their opinion should be included, but if you want to expand the reach of your product, you really need to survey the people who considered it but ultimately bought something else and see what they think.

[Bob]

A surprising amount of Type R content on the Camaro6 thread:

The new chassis and carbon fiber rims would close the gap to nill on a 7.0 gen 6 IMO. I will also point out the Z/28 had the same top HP to the wheels but wait! It had upto 100 ft /lbs across a HUGE section of the usable curve.

I also race a type R, current configuration is a sleeved all bore 86mm x 82mm 2.1 liter 285 HP at 9200 RPM NA, in actual performance due to the peaky nature of the HP I have to knock 10% vs a K24 engine at 2.4 liters just because of the K24s broader torque curve mainly due to longer stroke. That is 28 hard to get HP at about 100 bucks a HP... Yep it cost almost $3000 above an already built 1.8 l Type R B18C to put out the same usable HP as a stock K24 can do with bolt ons and maybe cams. LOL technology. This is the last B engine I'll ever build.

So Ford can get all the peak power they want, but it is HP applied under the curve over the run: 1/4 or road race. Ford guys will find out soon enough as the Honda guys have know for years 4V twin cam: the 4v can generate the HP and it all sounds good literally. But ain't gonna replace CID.

Apparently the ricer crowd is learning about displacement.

Whether you love the Type R or not, I think you'll find the Type R community has a pretty high percentage of real enthusiasts these days.

Also comparing the cost to add HP to a B-series to a K-series is somewhat like comparing a 90s LT1 to a LSX. Different powertrains from different ERAs and of course the newer one is better.

[kevm14]

Dyno comparisons.

2015-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-vs-2016-Ford-Mustang-GT350-and-GT350R-dyno.jpg

The LS7 has a broader torque curve. The Voodoo will feel like a V6 below 3,500 rpm. I really wish they could make an "LT7" or similar. Or even LT6 in the same spirit as the original LS6.

[Bob]

The LS7 has a broader torque curve. The Voodoo will feel like a V6 below 3,500 rpm. I really wish they could make an "LT7" or similar. Or even LT6 in the same spirit as the original LS6.

I always enjoyed the free revving nature of the LS6. I think you want an engine that feels like that in a performance car.

[kevm14]

From an E90 forum:

Test drove a 2SS with the standard suspension, and it was incredibly comfortable. The ride was much, much nicer than my e90, but the mildly worn struts on my e90 don't do it any favors. The fit and finish inside was very good. I'm not going to act like it was M4 nice, but certainly better than my e90, and the f30's I've driven. The leather is soft, and seats are comfortable. The magnetic ride control is even more smooth, but doesn't perform quite as well. The Camaro in this comparison had the magnetic ride.
A few flaws are the door handles feel a little cheap, and the vents in the center console would either freeze or cook your hand when shifting (they mention this in the article). The visibility is fine, IF you adjust the mirrors correctly; otherwise, it's better than the 5th gen, but still not what I'd call good. To the "coffin" comment, I'd wager you drove a 5th gen. The 6th did not have any sort of coffin feel to it, when I was driving. My 335 feels like a coffin at night, and even during the day, it blocks a lot of ambient light.
The height of the dash has a lot to do with the 5th gen feeling like a coffin, methinks. The seat in the 2SS I had was positioned perfectly for my height, so that helps.

[kevm14]

Also E90 forum:

If you're a motorhead and were in your 20s in the 80s, German cars were the only game around. My dad worked for GM and it was downright depressing how bad Detroit built cars. Why? Detroit during that time transitioned from car guy leadership to CFOs at the top job.

Imagine being a young engineer or marketing guy back then. It must have hurt deeply to get no respect at home while the Germans mopped up the roads.

My theory is that those same young engineers and product people are decision makers now operating at the CXO, VP, and Director levels. They have big chips on their shoulders because those bad old memories don't disappear. At the same time, BMW transitioned from a car guy company into a wanna be GM. Just look at the current product portfolio. It is simply ridiculous. A car for everyone, M badges like racing decals to go faster, more tech and electronics than driving dynamics, more chrome, more weight, etc. IMO Detroit builds better cars today than Germany, at least for drivers (other than Porsche). The sole place where Detroit still needs to play aggressive catch-up is in styling and appearance. But styling is improving, too. I'm not quite ready to buy my first American car, but I'm close. A little progress on the styling and the decision becomes pretty simple. At least for me.

When I go to the BMW dealership it feels more like shopping at Barneys than mingling with car people. And I kinda like Barneys more than going to the dealer. It's quite sad that the company that invented the sports sedan genre now builds the best old Buicks in the world.

[kevm14]

Lexus forum:

I've been checking out pictures and videos of the upcoming 1LE Camaro, and I think I might have to take back what I previously said about BMW and Camaro never being cross shopped. It looks freaking amazing! With BMW shoving AWD down our throats, I might check out a Camaro for my next car!

[bill25]

Interesting. I guess I am not the only very pro GM guy to give Porsche a pass:

IMO Detroit builds better cars today than Germany, at least for drivers (other than Porsche).

[kevm14]

Oh shit, the video is up!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

I like how the Camaro has the same wheelbase as the M4, down the the tenth of an inch.

Also these keep getting better and better. Eventually I might even want to pay for it.

Goddamn that was an enjoyable episode.